jarski
Veteran
Despite some criticizing this comment, am agreeing, from my subjective and limited perspective.
BillBingham2
Registered User
Bill,
As always, thanks for sharing the article and your thoughts. I have to agree it's a rather tasteless to publish with that tone. Perhaps they could have recreated the lab and run some tests, been more scientific. Over agitation seems more plausible than over heating in drying, but that's me. We've always had a lot of second guessers and one of the bad parts of the internet is now we get to hear more of them.
When we were DINKs (double income no kids) some years back Linda and I bought a couple of Eisenstaedt prints. I remember looking at the Marlene Dietrich picture (1928) and while I liked the picture was surprised at the lack of clarity compared to others. I don't remember if it was slight movement or if it was optics and frankly to me it doesn't make a difference, it's still a great picture. First wave, third wave, it matters not, IMHO he put his life on the line and helped us understand a bit of what thousands went through. Two thumbs way up and a big thank you to him and everyone to did what they did.
B2 (;->
As always, thanks for sharing the article and your thoughts. I have to agree it's a rather tasteless to publish with that tone. Perhaps they could have recreated the lab and run some tests, been more scientific. Over agitation seems more plausible than over heating in drying, but that's me. We've always had a lot of second guessers and one of the bad parts of the internet is now we get to hear more of them.
When we were DINKs (double income no kids) some years back Linda and I bought a couple of Eisenstaedt prints. I remember looking at the Marlene Dietrich picture (1928) and while I liked the picture was surprised at the lack of clarity compared to others. I don't remember if it was slight movement or if it was optics and frankly to me it doesn't make a difference, it's still a great picture. First wave, third wave, it matters not, IMHO he put his life on the line and helped us understand a bit of what thousands went through. Two thumbs way up and a big thank you to him and everyone to did what they did.
B2 (;->
Pioneer
Veteran
There are always those who go out and do. In the doing they build a reputation.
And then following them are always those who forego the doing and try to establish their own reputation by attacking what others have done before them.
I will leave it to you to decide who was the doer in this controversy.
And then following them are always those who forego the doing and try to establish their own reputation by attacking what others have done before them.
I will leave it to you to decide who was the doer in this controversy.
xayraa33
rangefinder user and fancier
Robert Capa was like the rock 'n roll star of war photographers.
And yes, just like the legendary rock 'n roll stars of the 1950s and 1960s he was promoted and hyped up in his lifetime and after.
That some people try to take him down a few notches is perfectly normal, whether warranted or not, but that is the price of being made legendary and bigger than real life.
And yes, just like the legendary rock 'n roll stars of the 1950s and 1960s he was promoted and hyped up in his lifetime and after.
That some people try to take him down a few notches is perfectly normal, whether warranted or not, but that is the price of being made legendary and bigger than real life.
Mr_Flibble
In Tabulas Argenteas Refero
"Show me a hero and I'll prove he's a bum" - Greg Boyington
peterm1
Veteran
The world loves a charming cad - a bum if you like, especially from a distance. And Capa was a charmer. But here's the thing, most people who knew him seemed to like the guy too. So he really can't have been all bad. And of course he did his job, repeatedly putting himself in harm's way to get the photos. And that is something they can't take away from him though some may try.
Dan
Let's Sway
I think you're misunderstanding my point. As an example, many of Mathew Brady's photographs have such a unique beauty to them even as they depict the horrors of our civil war. I could just respond to them as visual images complete with composition, light, tonality, and physical character and not value or contemplate the subject matter.
But just because Capa was present and making photographs in a unique historical moment does not automatically elevate everything -- or for that matter anything -- he made photographically. Hypothetically, what characteristics in Capa's images do you see that would separate his results from a very brave and talented local photographer who went to the beach at the same time with the same photographic intentions?
Dan
Let's Sway
I'm sure mine would suck unless I got truly lucky and believe me, I respect the whole other perspective that being in a life or death situation just might knock you off your game.
Maybe Capa was chosen, I'm guessing, precisely because of his reputation, that he was the guy to send into the landing operation because he was the guy who would deliver the goods. As you can tell, I don't believe the results of his efforts point to anything amazing photographically.
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Bill Pierce
Well-known
Robert Capa was a news photographer. This from Wikipedia...
In the early 1950s, Capa traveled to Japan for an exhibition associated with Magnum Photos. While there, Life magazine asked him to go on assignment to Southeast Asia, where the French had been fighting for eight years in the First Indochina War. Although a few years earlier he had said he was finished with war, Capa accepted and accompanied a French regiment with two Time-Life journalists, John Mecklin and Jim Lucas in Thái Bình Province. On 25 May 1954, the regiment was passing through a dangerous area under fire when Capa decided to leave his Jeep and go up the road to photograph the advance. Capa was killed when he stepped on a land mine.[4]:155[47]
He was 40 at the time of his death. He is buried in plot #189 at Amawalk Hill Cemetery (also called Friends Cemetery), Amawalk, Westchester County, New York along with his mother, Julia, and his brother, Cornell Capa
In the early 1950s, Capa traveled to Japan for an exhibition associated with Magnum Photos. While there, Life magazine asked him to go on assignment to Southeast Asia, where the French had been fighting for eight years in the First Indochina War. Although a few years earlier he had said he was finished with war, Capa accepted and accompanied a French regiment with two Time-Life journalists, John Mecklin and Jim Lucas in Thái Bình Province. On 25 May 1954, the regiment was passing through a dangerous area under fire when Capa decided to leave his Jeep and go up the road to photograph the advance. Capa was killed when he stepped on a land mine.[4]:155[47]
He was 40 at the time of his death. He is buried in plot #189 at Amawalk Hill Cemetery (also called Friends Cemetery), Amawalk, Westchester County, New York along with his mother, Julia, and his brother, Cornell Capa
Bill Pierce
Well-known
From Wikipedia some of the material on Mathew Brady....
In 1844, Brady opened his own photography studio at the corner of Broadway and Fulton Street in New York in 1844,[6][7] and by 1845, he began to exhibit his portraits of famous Americans, including the likes of Senator Daniel Webster and poet Edgar Allan Poe.
In 1850, Brady produced The Gallery of Illustrious Americans, a portrait collection of prominent contemporary figures. The album, which featured noteworthy images including the elderly Andrew Jackson at the Hermitage, was not financially rewarding but invited increased attention to Brady's work and artistry.
At first, the effect of the Civil War on Brady's business was a brisk increase in sales of cartes de visite to departing soldiers. Brady readily marketed to parents the idea of capturing their young soldiers' images before they might be lost to war by running an ad in The New York Daily Tribune that warned, "You cannot tell how soon it may be too late." However, he was soon taken with the idea of documenting the war itself. His efforts to document the American Civil War on a grand scale by bringing his photographic studio onto the battlefields earned Brady his place in history. While most of the time the battle had ceased before pictures were taken, Brady came under direct fire at the First Battle of Bull Run, Petersburg, and Fredericksburg.
He also employed Alexander Gardner,[12] James Gardner, Timothy H. O'Sullivan, William Pywell, George N. Barnard, Thomas C. Roche, and seventeen other men, each of whom was given a traveling darkroom, to go out and photograph scenes from the Civil War. Brady generally stayed in Washington, D.C., organizing his assistants and rarely visited battlefields personally.
Many of the images in Brady's collection are, in reality, thought to be the work of his assistants. Brady was criticized for failing to document the work, though it is unclear whether it was intentional or due simply to a lack of inclination to document the photographer of a specific image. Because so much of Brady's photography is missing information, it is difficult to know not only who took the picture, but also exactly when or where it was taken. Brady was not able to photograph actual battle scenes, as the photographic equipment in those days was still in the infancy of its technical development and required that a subject be still in order for a clear photo to be produced.
During the war, Brady spent over $100,000 to create over 10,000 plates. He expected the US government to buy the photographs when the war ended. When the government refused to do so he was forced to sell his New York City studio and go into bankruptcy. Congress granted Brady $25,000 in 1875, but he remained deeply in debt. The public was unwilling to dwell on the gruesomeness of the war after it had ended, and so private collectors were scarce. Depressed by his financial situation and loss of eyesight, and devastated by the death of his wife in 1887, he died penniless in the charity ward of Presbyterian Hospital in New York City on January 15, 1896, from complications following a streetcar accident. Brady's funeral was financed by veterans of the 7th New York Infantry. He was buried in the Congressional Cemetery in Washington, D.C.
In 1844, Brady opened his own photography studio at the corner of Broadway and Fulton Street in New York in 1844,[6][7] and by 1845, he began to exhibit his portraits of famous Americans, including the likes of Senator Daniel Webster and poet Edgar Allan Poe.
In 1850, Brady produced The Gallery of Illustrious Americans, a portrait collection of prominent contemporary figures. The album, which featured noteworthy images including the elderly Andrew Jackson at the Hermitage, was not financially rewarding but invited increased attention to Brady's work and artistry.
At first, the effect of the Civil War on Brady's business was a brisk increase in sales of cartes de visite to departing soldiers. Brady readily marketed to parents the idea of capturing their young soldiers' images before they might be lost to war by running an ad in The New York Daily Tribune that warned, "You cannot tell how soon it may be too late." However, he was soon taken with the idea of documenting the war itself. His efforts to document the American Civil War on a grand scale by bringing his photographic studio onto the battlefields earned Brady his place in history. While most of the time the battle had ceased before pictures were taken, Brady came under direct fire at the First Battle of Bull Run, Petersburg, and Fredericksburg.
He also employed Alexander Gardner,[12] James Gardner, Timothy H. O'Sullivan, William Pywell, George N. Barnard, Thomas C. Roche, and seventeen other men, each of whom was given a traveling darkroom, to go out and photograph scenes from the Civil War. Brady generally stayed in Washington, D.C., organizing his assistants and rarely visited battlefields personally.
Many of the images in Brady's collection are, in reality, thought to be the work of his assistants. Brady was criticized for failing to document the work, though it is unclear whether it was intentional or due simply to a lack of inclination to document the photographer of a specific image. Because so much of Brady's photography is missing information, it is difficult to know not only who took the picture, but also exactly when or where it was taken. Brady was not able to photograph actual battle scenes, as the photographic equipment in those days was still in the infancy of its technical development and required that a subject be still in order for a clear photo to be produced.
During the war, Brady spent over $100,000 to create over 10,000 plates. He expected the US government to buy the photographs when the war ended. When the government refused to do so he was forced to sell his New York City studio and go into bankruptcy. Congress granted Brady $25,000 in 1875, but he remained deeply in debt. The public was unwilling to dwell on the gruesomeness of the war after it had ended, and so private collectors were scarce. Depressed by his financial situation and loss of eyesight, and devastated by the death of his wife in 1887, he died penniless in the charity ward of Presbyterian Hospital in New York City on January 15, 1896, from complications following a streetcar accident. Brady's funeral was financed by veterans of the 7th New York Infantry. He was buried in the Congressional Cemetery in Washington, D.C.
michaelwj
----------------
I’m going to go out on a limb and say that a photograph is the intersection of talent, time, place, and intention. What elevates Capas photos is that he was there, then, with the talent required to express his intentions. What else is a photograph if not a document of a time and place taken by someone with the required talent to express their intentions. If your hypothetical photographer did not get the same pictures as Capa then their intentions were different or they weren’t talented enough to realise their intentions.
Maybe your issue is you don’t agree with his intentions?
peterm1
Veteran
I think there are many types of photographer and approaches to photography. For example one of my favorites who surpasses even Capa is Frank Hurley an Australian photographer who made photos on the Western Front in WW1. He had a flair for art and invention and often took some liberties with strict truth. The following image for example is a concoction made from several images - all real in themselves but this photo is arguably not because it was composited in the darkroom. Never the less it conveys in a quite cinematic way the experience of being there in a way that many photographers could not and other photos did not.
Other of his photos were not concocted in the same way but do sometimes look, perhaps, posed. Never the less they are beautiful images in their own way and extremely well done both technically and artistically.
Hurley had a knack for composition that most others lacked - and the willingness to take a hand in directing the composition in a way that war photographers are not normally supposed to. In fact once you experience his style you can often pick his work from a random bunch of photos - he was that distinctive.
Capa is entirely different (notwithstanding his famous falling soldier photo from Spain which is now said - with some justification - to have been staged). But I could not quite imagine him being able to produce Hurley's works as he had a different "eye" that captured the reality and immediacy of combat but did not result in quite so appealing works of art. Certainly they were not so clever as Hurley's efforts, but as you say, Capa was there and did get raw combat images in a way that many photographers did not. They may not be works of great art but they are very real.
Dan
Let's Sway
That could be, and it brings up an interesting question I don't know how to answer: beyond logistics, what would someone like Capa do prior to an assignment like this in order to "prepare" to realize, or carry out, his intentions?
michaelwj
----------------
This speaks to the intentions. He was sent on assignment to get photos of the landing for immediate publication in the newspaper and picture magazines. He was not there to create art, he was there to show what it was like to land that morning in that place to the public. I think he did an excellent job.
My 2c on the original topic is that he landed, took a few images and having fulfilled the aims of the assignment decided to get the f outta there and live to see tomorrow. The rest of the rolls were always blank and the darkroom folk just would have assumed he'd finished the rolls and so jumped to the most obvious conclusion.
Dan
Let's Sway
Thank you for sharing Hurley, someone I was not aware of, as well as your graceful explanation. You've articulated my thoughts better than I can.
michaelwj
----------------
I would answer (even though I'm not sure I can) that he has prepared for it by photographing war since the Spanish Civil War, honing his skills and instincts in the process. In a situation like that however, I can't imagine sticking to the plan so to speak.
peterm1
Veteran
Most likely true of course. But according to his biographies it was also true that immediately before assignments Capa routinely got in as much womanizing, boinking, drinking, smoking and gambling as any human being could want (and more than most could handle).
I recall reading about one of his post WW2 exploits when in Israel during the war that broke out when the new state was formed. At some point during a night when Jewish forces were expecting an attack, Capa was highlighted by searchlights in the middle of no man's land on a hillside with a beautiful young Sabra. I gather they were not discussing military strategy. (P202 Blood and Champagne).
That pretty much was Capra as I understand it. The love of his life, his muse and fellow photographer, Gerda Taro died in an accident in the Spanish civil war and I wonder if that contributed to Capa's later habit of living in the moment every day. Or perhaps, I am just romanticizing. It was certainly said of him that he went in search of death or something of this sort - I forget the exact quote. I don't think he necessarily literally had a serious death wish but I do think he liked to tickle the Grim Reaper's whiskers. He was after all an avid gambler. But first and foremost he was a photographer - a quote of his I rather like which also happens to be relevant to the discussion about the D Day photos; "What's the point of getting killed if you have got the wrong exposure?"
Erik van Straten
Veteran
Capa's photographs were artistically mediocre, but not Cartier-Bresson's. Cartier-Bresson's pictures are masterpieces of artistic photography.
Erik.
Erik van Straten
Veteran
The following image by Frank Hurley for example is a concoction made from several images - all real in themselves but this photo is arguably not because it was composited in the darkroom.
Great picture! Hard to believe it is a concoction.
Erik.