Corran
Well-known
Not exactly correct. The Hypergons had two stops, selected with a little sliding tab. The middle spinning fan part was separate, and did act as a center filter for the intense fall-off on the lens.
I would love to have a 75mm one for my 8x10, or a 120mm one for my 8x20...but they are stupidly expensive due to collectors and rarity. A friend of mine found a 60mm one complete with custom camera for less than $100, in an eBay auction that was poorly advertised...lucky man.
raid
Dad Photographer
$4750 ... only.
https://www.ebay.com/itm/Goerz-Berl...473669?hash=item3b01098d45:g:cFAAAOSweLBac-YG
I may have been fortunate to find a new-old-stock Hologon 16/8.
https://www.ebay.com/itm/Goerz-Berl...473669?hash=item3b01098d45:g:cFAAAOSweLBac-YG
I may have been fortunate to find a new-old-stock Hologon 16/8.
Corran
Well-known
I would pay quite a bit for a nice complete Hypergon to actually use, but that's several times more than I could/would unfortunately. I honestly don't even think the market is there for them at that price, but people keep trying.
menos
Veteran
I bought a M mount 15/4.5 CV some time ago as I thought I would like to hve a very wide lens but never really warmed up to that lens and barely ever used it - reminds me to put it up for sale here.
This CV and the 16/8 Hologon could not be any more different.
When seeing photographs made by the Hologon up close (or digital in high magnification on a 4K screen) what is most apparent is the very beautiful fine detail the lens renders.
It produces also a unique tonality I always liked in combination with tho original Leica MM.
The CV 15/4.5 really has a very ordinary compared to the Hologon - images up close do have a soft veil to them (much similar as the 75/2.5 compared to a Leica 75/1.4 at same aperture).
Don’t get me wrong - these CV lenses are fine lenses that produce great photogrphs in the right hands - they just lack this very fine detail (often referred to as micro contrast).
People who suggest a 15/4.5 CV over the 16/8 Hologon most certainly do so as of practicality reasons (and they are absolutely right) but the image quality of the Hologon and it’s unique character (lack of distortion, high detail, beautiful tonality but also very strong lightfalloff and certainly incompatibility with digitial sensors) is very apecial.
This video is described to be shot with a Zeiss movie lens 16 T2.1 - I wish we had a hologon that fast but it most certainly would also be heavy to carry ;-)
I am not a movie maker by any stretch but would imagine that the extremely obvious lightfalloff of the Hologon would be a big issue for movie making other than for some special effects.
Regarding the use on a digital camera (Hologon 15 and 16mm) I am afraid you should not getyour hopes up too much Raid.
I do not know of any any person having had success to overcome the color issues caused by the steep angle light has falling in those sensor wells at the outer perimeter.
I have used my Hologon only on the original MM and current M246 (it is spectacular on the original MM). I believe I never even tried it on the M9.
On the M8 it makes actually an AMAZING 21mm with all the positive characterisitics of the Hologon - I believe color can be handled with the M8 crop.
The major issue next to false color at the outer perimeter is that color sensor cameras (M9 and later) do have a sensor filter glass package and sensor design that is completely unsuited to such extreme symmetrical lenses.
Image detail really is deterriorated and appears less sharp, especially to the outer perimeter.
You want to use the Hologon ideally with negative color film or of. course shoot B&W.
The original MM is nice too if you use the centre filter, use the coding as 16mm WATE and use a development profile further working on the lightfalloff caused by the digital sensor.
The M246 is nice in that it allows live view and metering but I never liked it’s sensor and always hated it’s cumbersome user interface.
Now that I have all but forgotten the Leica gear I wish I could use the Hologon on a Nikon RF ;-)
When I am back at the office I have to dig in the archive what shots I have from the Hologon on the M246. Maybe I dig out that camera again and do a few more.
Erik van Straten
Veteran
I agree, the quality of the lens is completely in line with that of the other Contax G lenses in terms of tonality and sharpness, due partly because of the T* coating, but of course also because of the quality of the whole thing, the few glass elements and all that.
Erik.
Erik van Straten
Veteran
In my archives I found this one:
Contax G1, Hologon 16mm f/8, Tmax400. Talking about quality.
Erik.
Contax G1, Hologon 16mm f/8, Tmax400. Talking about quality.
Erik.
raid
Dad Photographer
Thank you very much, Dirk, for your detailed comments on the Hologon lens. They make me even more anxious to use this lens once I get it back from DAG. I could use it with the M9 for B&W and with the M8 for color, if this is needed to avoid some strange looking color effects in the edges with digital camera sensors. The fine tonality will be a major treat!
Thank you, Erik, for your posted examples with it. The last image is superb looking.
Thank you, Erik, for your posted examples with it. The last image is superb looking.
raid
Dad Photographer
I have emailed Peter Karbe (Leica AG) for advice on using the Hologon with the M9. I wonder what he will say. Most likely, use a Leica lens!
Corran
Well-known
I wouldn't mind seeing a direct comparison image between the Hologon and Voigtlander lenses discussed by menos above. I haven never used a Hologon, but I have the Voigtlander (ver1, Nikon F mount version) and it is one of my favorite lenses. I use it on my Nikon RF and Leica cameras (including the M9, which it works well on with the 16mm WATE profile). It is a fine lens and has plenty of sharpness and micro-contrast as far as I can see on TMX and high-rez scans.
raid
Dad Photographer
The claim is that CV 15/4 III is corrected very well for digital cameras.
Erik van Straten
Veteran
Contax G1, Hologon 16mm f/8, Tmax400.
Erik.
Erik.
raid
Dad Photographer
A great shot, Erik. The Hologon used for portraits.
menos
Veteran
Unfortunately I never tried the Contax G lenses other than the Hologon. My only experience with Zeiss lenses are Rolleiflex, Hasselblad and the Contax 645 lenses.
As far fetched as it may be there can be observed some similarities in image quality between say comparing monochrome photographs from a stopped down Zeiss 80/2 in Contax 645 mount on a digital Leica S2 and photographs shot with the original Leica MM and Hologon. These two sensors are indeed of the same generation, also both having minimal sensor cover glass layers (as does the M8 sensor btw), helping those sensors to show the most possible detail from these lenses.
The Hologon belongs into this rare group of optical designs that stand out in image quality - it also is a very exotic design but it does stand out on image qualit alone.
The 15/4.5 CV vII I have also used sparingly on digital sensors does not stand out - it may be entirely different on film but I admit not having used it much on film.
The main characteristics were the 15/4.5 CV and 16/8 Hologon differ are:
- resolution (sharpness and detail across the entire frame)
- contrast and tonality (the CV is a very blunt tool here, while the Hologon has this wonderful very precise separation between tones which especially in monochrom images stands out)
- obviously distortion
I especially like lenses with this beautiful widespread tonality, not looking aggressively contrasty but separating tones across the entire range.
Lenses as the Planar on the Rolleiflex or the 35/2 UC Hexanon or the 50/1.1 Nikkor-N or the 50/1.5 CZJ clearly do that and are standing out for this feature. The Hologon belongs into this special goup of lenses.
I always liked how the Hologon rendered lightsources - it looks so natural. This is really beautiful Erik!In my archives I found this one:
Contax G1, Hologon 16mm f/8, Tmax400. Talking about quality.
Erik.
You will especially like the look of the Hologon on the M8 sensor Raid.
The M8 sensor behaves almost identical to the orignal MM sensor and shows MUCH finer detail than the M9 sensor ever could as of the entirely different sensor glass package (what made the M8 so unsuited to true color photography with it’s IR contamination also makes it’s detail so crisp as of the lack of thick sensor glass packages as on the M9 sensor).
It also becomes a much more useful 21mm equivalent with the M8 and really shines on it.
You just have to meter with a handheld meter and if you can, shoot the full bit depth RAW files, using the service menu hack and conversion software to normal DNG files for full fidelity.
If you are into wide angle lenses you will love the Hologon!
When you get the lens back from DAG just make sure you run some tests with it. Although it is such a very wide lens with such a deep DOF it is VERY sensitive to the slightest mis calibration (optical cell to sensor) during conversion that any misalignment is easily visible ( infinity performance).
A friend who bought a converted sample some time ago was never happy with it and after having had it redone the lens really came to life!
The 15/4.5 CV I have is a vII M-mount sample. I believe it has the same optical design as the v1 in LTM mount, only a changed barrel design and addition of a filter thread and focus coupling.
I never used it much on film and never took similar photos with it to make a comparison with the Hologon.
Sadly I also do not have that beloved orignal MM any longer (BEST camera I have ever used and I miss it. ery much) - mine fell sick with sensor corrosion and my only option back then was to side-grade to the newer M246 which is horrible in almost every respect compared to the original MM.
I may do some side by side shots once I am back in the office.
I only have very old shots online, but here is something from the Heliar:
... and something from the Hologon:
It’s hard to show it in these small mangled flickr jpgs but the high res original on a calibrated screen or in a print the dark tones really separate precisely with the Hologon while I never saw that same precision in tones with the Heliar.
This might actually show a very different behavior again, as the v1 and vII Heliar behaved badly (actually worse than the 12mm) on digital cameras.
Beautiful Erik! The f8 fixed aperture really allows for these layered images - great composition!Contax G1, Hologon 16mm f/8, Tmax400.
Erik.
Emile de Leon
Well-known
I think I want this lens..maybe...
http://fotobistro.com/a-1995-zeiss-16mm-hologon-t-goes-digital/
http://fotobistro.com/a-1995-zeiss-16mm-hologon-t-goes-digital/
Erik van Straten
Veteran
Thank you all for the compliments.
Dirk, great pictures! Your comments are very interesting, as usual.
Sad thing that Leica never did put this lens into an M-mount. The G cameras are not up to a thing like this on the long term. I will soon try out my "conversion".
Erik.
Dirk, great pictures! Your comments are very interesting, as usual.
Sad thing that Leica never did put this lens into an M-mount. The G cameras are not up to a thing like this on the long term. I will soon try out my "conversion".
Erik.
raid
Dad Photographer
I will experiment with my Hologon with M8 (color; B&W) and also M9 (color; B&W) when I get back the lens from DAG and when I get back my M9 from Leica. I can use the loaner M240 until I get back my M9.
raid
Dad Photographer
I sent my Hologon to DAG for the best possible conversion even when the cost is not a small amount. I want the best.
There may exist tight tolerances and there is need for a specialist who has done such work before and has done it well. I have seen several postings online in which users of such a lens said they sent the lens to DAG.
There may exist tight tolerances and there is need for a specialist who has done such work before and has done it well. I have seen several postings online in which users of such a lens said they sent the lens to DAG.
raid
Dad Photographer
I wonder what the advantages are for using a Hologon on a Leica M8 versus using a CV 21/4 on a Leica M9? The latter is much less expensive, and it is a faster lens.
Phil_F_NM
Camera hacker
The 16/T2.1 is a Distagon of telecentric design. It's not going to have nearly the falloff of a non-retrofocal lens like the Hologon. It's the evolution of the superwide for cinema use on film. Angenieux started that in the late 50s with a 10mm for the 16mm Bell & Howell cameras. The 16/T2.1 is probably more like a 48mm lens with optics that divide apparent focal length by three. It's exactly the same way Leica is getting around the color fringing problem with their digital cameras. They are just making standard non-retrofocal lenses like their SLR competitors so the angle of light rays hitting the sensor is as close to perpendicular as possible.
Phil Forrest
Corran
Well-known
I doubt you want to hear this, but IMO, none. The CV 21/4 on the M9, especially with a profile, looks amazing. The 21 and 25 from Voigtlander are some of the best lenses I have used, especially the 25. And especially on film, but they do work fine on the M9 and a profile cleans up any small issues arising from the traditional design.
This thread isn't about other lenses so I have refrained from posting images from said lenses (or the 15mm). If you would like to see that perhaps start a thread for CV Wide Angles or something? I would be happy to contribute.
I also have some classic Zeiss lenses like the 21mm and 35mm Biogon and 50mm f/1.5 Sonnar. I do like the classic lenses and they have a softer global contrast that sometimes can be really nice, especially in certain lighting situations and for certain prints.