wintoid
Back to film
Does this one look like a fake? eBay id 160389076989
Carl Zeiss Jena Sonnar
- Thread starter wintoid
- Start date
- Latest activity Latest activity:
- Replies 48
- Views 8K
johannielscom
Snorting silver salts
Never seen anything like this, especially the gripping rings. Very uncommon, probably not real.
Beauty rings from CZJ Sonnars with Contax mount fit the LTM version (and the Jupiter-3!) perfectly, so hacking one isn't that hard.
Ask Brian, he'll tell you more.
Sidenote: I received a Jupiter-3 from 1952 from this seller today, that looks legit. But, I had to enquire about shipping before he sent it out. He did include a Zorki filter. To make up, I guess...
Beauty rings from CZJ Sonnars with Contax mount fit the LTM version (and the Jupiter-3!) perfectly, so hacking one isn't that hard.
Ask Brian, he'll tell you more.
Sidenote: I received a Jupiter-3 from 1952 from this seller today, that looks legit. But, I had to enquire about shipping before he sent it out. He did include a Zorki filter. To make up, I guess...
Last edited:
raid
Dad Photographer
The lens looks OK to me, but I would never pay more than $200 for it since I am not sure that is genuine. It is safer to buy a Contax mount Sonnar 5cm 1.5 and use an Amedeo adapter with it.
Johan: There are no "fake" J-3's around, so the lens you bought must be OK.
Johan: There are no "fake" J-3's around, so the lens you bought must be OK.
raid
Dad Photographer
I got lucky once when I bought a CZJ 50 2.0 LTM, but it was a customized lens at one time. Marc Small told me that it was either done by Zeiss or by someone else after the production of the lens.
wintoid
Back to film
Thanks guys
Sonnar Brian
Established
The knurling is not original. It looks like a custom conversion of a Contax mount Zeiss to LTM, in my opinion. It could have been a "transition" lens, made in Russia as the German parts ran out and copied parts were used. I do not like how the Index MArk for the aperture ring is in the wrong place. That means the Focus Helical is was reset in the Mount to acheive infinity focus. That problem is common in J-3's, but not in the German Sonnars that I've worked on.
johannielscom
Snorting silver salts
A 1952 lens is quite an old one, and a wanted one. After I had bought the lens I noticed the optical unit had a different color from the barrel. Now that it arrived I can tell it checks out, but the barrel probably was cleaned rather unprofessionally.
raid
Dad Photographer
Just last week I bought a 1951 KMZ J-3 in Contax mount. The lens looks very clean both cosmetically and optically.
Sonnar Brian
Established
Here is the thread on ziforums.com in which I take apart my 272 series Sonnar, original LTM. The parts of the focus mechanism have their own matching serial numbers. I've found such numbers on all of the wartime lenses that I've taken apart, and on some early lenses finished in Russia.
http://ziforums.com/showthread.php?t=120
Also note: on my lens, the last 4 digits of the SN are slightly different than the "272" series number. I'm thinking all of the name rings were made with a stamped 272 and the last 4 digits put in afterwards. Again, just observation and speculation.
Now the lens in the Ebay auction: The Focus mechanism does not seem to have the set screw required for the close focus stop that is in the Zeiss LTM Sonnar and ZK LTM Sonnar. It's construction is probably a J-3 with a jazzed up knurling. But- the only way to know for sure is to buy it and take it apart. I'll pass!
http://ziforums.com/showthread.php?t=120
Also note: on my lens, the last 4 digits of the SN are slightly different than the "272" series number. I'm thinking all of the name rings were made with a stamped 272 and the last 4 digits put in afterwards. Again, just observation and speculation.
Now the lens in the Ebay auction: The Focus mechanism does not seem to have the set screw required for the close focus stop that is in the Zeiss LTM Sonnar and ZK LTM Sonnar. It's construction is probably a J-3 with a jazzed up knurling. But- the only way to know for sure is to buy it and take it apart. I'll pass!
Sonnar Brian
Established
I used to post threads with attachments at RFF, but they get administratively deleted every two years. Attachments are not meant to be permanent on this site. So I post project threads with attachments on them at ziforums and post links to them here.
johannielscom
Snorting silver salts
Brian, I followed a link on page 2 in your ziforum thread and came across this shot on the French site with a Sonnar with the same knurled mount. From my crippled french this mr. Vanden Zegel (dutch name, btw) seems to feel its genuine?
Sonnar Brian
Established
I see the lens. That individual had contacted me a year ago and inquired about working on those lenses, but never followed through.
It's near impossible to guess without taking them apart, and even then it is a best guess.
What I look for right off: on the focus collar three set screws hold the collar in place, and a fourth is used as a travel stop for the focus action. The end of the screw sits in a slot and is causes the lens to stop. It is inline with the set screw shown, angled at the camera. This odd lens does not have it. The J-3 mechanism has the stop screw hidden under the focus mount. That is the one i removed to make my 1956 KMZ J-3 focus to ~0.8m.
SO: my guess at looking at the photos: it is a Zeiss optics module set in a J-3 mount that has been custom machined for the knurling. NOT worth $600.
It's near impossible to guess without taking them apart, and even then it is a best guess.
What I look for right off: on the focus collar three set screws hold the collar in place, and a fourth is used as a travel stop for the focus action. The end of the screw sits in a slot and is causes the lens to stop. It is inline with the set screw shown, angled at the camera. This odd lens does not have it. The J-3 mechanism has the stop screw hidden under the focus mount. That is the one i removed to make my 1956 KMZ J-3 focus to ~0.8m.
SO: my guess at looking at the photos: it is a Zeiss optics module set in a J-3 mount that has been custom machined for the knurling. NOT worth $600.
raid
Dad Photographer
Exactly .... it is worth $200. I bought from RFF last week a Contax mount CZJ 5cm 1.5 plus a non-working Contax III for $150.
Paul T.
Veteran
We've said that J3s aren't faked, but it's worth pointing out that the early Zorki SOnnars are now regularly faked.
THe bizarre thing is, is that at least a couple of years ago the early ones weren't worht a lot. I think I sold mine, which Marc Small thought was genuine, for around $200. Now the original have dried up and you see obvious fakes going for more than $200.
I certainly am glad I managed to find a 52 J3 for around $100 that has not been butchered (and which seems to focus perfectly on my Kiev 2); it's an amazing lens for the money.
THe bizarre thing is, is that at least a couple of years ago the early ones weren't worht a lot. I think I sold mine, which Marc Small thought was genuine, for around $200. Now the original have dried up and you see obvious fakes going for more than $200.
I certainly am glad I managed to find a 52 J3 for around $100 that has not been butchered (and which seems to focus perfectly on my Kiev 2); it's an amazing lens for the money.
raid
Dad Photographer
I now prefer the Contax mount Sonnar lenses, and they are easier to find as genuine than the LTM Sonnar lenses or copies.
Sonnar Brian
Established
I have another 1953 J-3 in LTM coming in. Could not resist. It's an earlier SN than the other two 1953's. We'll see what is under the hood. I will be going after a 1952 and 1951 J-3 in LTM as well. I want to find out when the changes were made. Yes, part of all that makes me the exciting person that I am today... TBFW!
photovdz
Well-known
The individual is back alive ;-)
was out of collecting for sometimes... but I'm back
about that lens 272 something with that strange knurling grip and unconventionnal fonts... I own it's sister lens (same batch) with exactly the same anomalies... I also saw a 85/F2 with the same metal and look but it was too expensive for me...
the lens (the glass) is real zeiss... but no one knows where they were assembled... probably at the end of the war in a small shop somewhere in Germany (after the bombing of Dresden ?...)
and it seems to be very different than a j3
What is interesting with wartime sonnars in LTM is the evolution from heavy metal to spare metal... I think i did send pictures of my little collection already, if anyone wants information i can repost.
Stephan
was out of collecting for sometimes... but I'm back
about that lens 272 something with that strange knurling grip and unconventionnal fonts... I own it's sister lens (same batch) with exactly the same anomalies... I also saw a 85/F2 with the same metal and look but it was too expensive for me...
the lens (the glass) is real zeiss... but no one knows where they were assembled... probably at the end of the war in a small shop somewhere in Germany (after the bombing of Dresden ?...)
and it seems to be very different than a j3
What is interesting with wartime sonnars in LTM is the evolution from heavy metal to spare metal... I think i did send pictures of my little collection already, if anyone wants information i can repost.
Stephan
Sonnar Brian
Established
I would like to see some close-ups of the lenses.
I've added two CZJ LTM Sonnars, a ZK Sonnar, and some early J-3's over the last year or so.
I've added two CZJ LTM Sonnars, a ZK Sonnar, and some early J-3's over the last year or so.
photovdz
Well-known
I don't believe that it's a J3 mount... the fonts used are totally uncommon... (and now I know there is at least 3 different lenses with that bizarre knurling and fonts... )
My 5cm was bought for peanuts to an american owner... so no intended fake there (fakes are usually trying to be sold at heavy price)
The 85/2 was sold by a californian dealer (and for an heavy price)
and this one comes from Prague...
mine has a earlier front ring (not that black one)...
food for thoughts...
Stephan
Sonnar Brian
Established
If it is a German Focus mechanism, I would expect to see the 3 or 4 digit serial numbers stamped on the individual pieces. The construction of the internals changed quite a bit going to the J-3. The German design for the focus mount requires the "stop screw", or the 4th screw in the focus mount that serves as the stop for close focus and infinity focus. The J-3 did away with this extra screw.
The ZK Sonnar uses the German focus mechanism that requires the extra stop screw, shown on the right.
The ZK Sonnar uses the German focus mechanism that requires the extra stop screw, shown on the right.
Last edited by a moderator:
