Cartier-Bresson - Surrealism and communism!

Rangefinderfreak said:
The most important theorema of communism: What is yours, will be eventually mine, but don`t ever dream that what is mine, will NEVER be yours...
Surrealism: What is mine, you don`t get, as it is immaterial. What is yours, you will be offering to me to get that what you think is "material"...
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Really? .. you don't think that view is at all simplistic or dogmatic?
 
I get the point that one can be too firmly wedded to a certain perspective, but going too far the other way - that all is relative, truth and has validity... then, you may as well give up discussing anything since you're juggling whilst attempting to stand on shifting sands!
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I can't help feeling that the sole absolute in the universe is −273.15° Celsius, all else is subject to discussion and the (more or less) random impact of other particles. When it comes to art, morality and the human condition, everything is relative, in my opinion.
 
Sejanus.Aelianus said:
I can't help feeling that the sole absolute in the universe is −273.15° Celsius, all else is subject to discussion and the (more or less) random impact of other particles. When it comes to art, morality and the human condition, everything is relative, in my opinion.
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... so geting back to the arty-farty conversation do you feel the Sistine Chapel ceiling is be the equal to Everyone I Have Ever Slept With? ... do you not think even relativism is not in fact a bit too egalitarian as it seems to allow no space for talent?
 
Sejanus.Aelianus said:
everything is relative, in my opinion.
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Can't disagree with that... but the degree of relativity depends on the observer and the observed! And surely some observers and observed have more influence than others - considering the entirety of observers and observed...?

Just an observation...
 
... so geting back to the arty-farty conversation do you feel the Sistine Chapel ceiling is be the equal to Everyone I Have Ever Slept With? ... do you not think even relativism is not in fact a bit too egalitarian as it seems to allow no space for talent?
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"We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal"; you either buy into that completely or not at all. I do buy into it and I'm not even American.

It seems to me that if all are created equal, then you have to accept that Tracy Ermin is fully the equal of the men who made the Sistine Chapel. That doesn't mean you have to like her stuff, nor does it mean there's anything wrong with you if you don't like the Pope's little church.
 
Sejanus.Aelianus said:
"We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal"; you either buy into that completely or not at all. I do buy into it and I'm not even American.

It seems to me that if all are created equal, then you have to accept that Tracy Ermin is fully the equal of the men who made the Sistine Chapel. That doesn't mean you have to like her stuff, nor does it mean there's anything wrong with you if you don't like the Pope's little church.
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Then we disagree; while as you say all men may well be created of equal humanity their needs and their abilities are evidentially quite different (if not all americans would have their own pool surely?) ...

... It seems clear to me that St Paul's is a superior structure to a semi in Surbiton, no? and while one may argue about the quantum of inequity between the respective architects it is a fact that they differ, that seems undeniable, would you not agree?
 
Then we disagree
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Indeed and the crux of that disagreement lies in the assumption that something is "better" than something else.

I do not see how St Paul's can be "superior" to the Semi in Surbiton because they are different structures, in different locations, built to serve different purposes. Comparison is no more valid in that case than to rank an Antelope against a Turtle.

However, I do agree with your point about the difference between the two architects. My point is simply that, provided they reach the same level of basic competence, then all else is simply a matter of personal taste.

It is the use of the word "better" in place of the phrase "more to my taste", in my opinion, from which confusion comes most of the misery in the world.
 
Sejanus.Aelianus said:
Indeed and the crux of that disagreement lies in the assumption that something is "better" than something else.

I do not see how St Paul's can be "superior" to the Semi in Surbiton because they are different structures, in different locations, built to serve different purposes. Comparison is no more valid in that case than to rank an Antelope against a Turtle.

However, I do agree with your point about the difference between the two architects. My point is simply that, provided they reach the same level of basic competence, then all else is simply a matter of personal taste.

It is the use of the word "better" in place of the phrase "more to my taste", in my opinion, from which confusion comes most of the misery in the world.
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You don't think that's a pretty small pinhead to dance on?

Clearly preferring Doric to Ionic or Corinthian is a matter of taste, whereas preferring it to chez Barett? ... you really think adding a fifth order is justified simply to accommodate someones uneducated opinion?

... and how do you decide what is worth studying, what is of value, if everything is of the same importance ? ... hasn't everything we know worth knowing come down to us through the filter convention over the centuries.

PS ... did I really use 'better' to support an argument? ... must be getting slow in my dotage
 
Sejanus.Aelianus said:
"We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal"; you either buy into that completely or not at all. I do buy into it and I'm not even American.

It seems to me that if all are created equal, then you have to accept that Tracy Ermin is fully the equal of the men who made the Sistine Chapel. That doesn't mean you have to like her stuff, nor does it mean there's anything wrong with you if you don't like the Pope's little church.
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I think there is a difference between being created equal and fulfilling your potential though development. It doesn't mean the actions of men/women are all equal and the efforts of all people are equal in comparative spheres.
 
Clearly preferring Doric to Ionic or Corinthian is a matter of taste, whereas preferring it to chez Barett? ... you really think adding a fifth order is justified simply to accommodate someones uneducated opinion?
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We'll have to agree to disagree on this one. You'll never get me to agree that anyone's opinion on art is more important than anyone else's opinion and I feel that I have no right to try and change another person's opinion to match mine.

... and how do you decide what is worth studying, what is of value, if everything is of the same importance ? ... hasn't everything we know worth knowing come down to us through the filter convention over the centuries.
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As has been said often, though in a different context, "vive la différence". I hold the view that much good has come from ignoring what has gone before, in the sciences as well as the arts.
 
Sejanus.Aelianus said:
We'll have to agree to disagree on this one. You'll never get me to agree that anyone's opinion on art is more important than anyone else's opinion and I feel that I have no right to try and change another person's opinion to match mine.



As has been said often, though in a different context, "vive la différence". I hold the view that much good has come from ignoring what has gone before, in the sciences as well as the arts.
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Then we do disagree, although we're not really talking about just two opinions are we? ... at some point there has to be a consensus of some sort surely
 
Sejanus.Aelianus said:
3,000 years of, more or less, recorded history would tend to argue that there is no inevitability to concensus. Quite the opposite, in fact.
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So you would deny a narrative to those three millennia? ... deny the idea of a story that humanity has preserved to celebrate it's highest achievements, an attempt to categorise and value what we do?

Do you have an alternative, and personal, Seven Wonders ... or simply reject Alexanders list?
 
Do you have an alternative, and personal, Seven Wonders ... or simply reject Alexanders list?
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I wasn't there then, so I can have no valid view on the matter. If I were going to select seven wonders of the world, the eradication of Smallpox, the spread of literacy and the rise of democracy would be the first items on my list.

I reject the idea that big buildings or artworks liked by a few are important, next to the advance of medicine, science and engineering, to the benefit of the many.
 
I wouldn't call Scientific, engineering etc... advances wonders but achievements. The art and architectural wonders simple blew Alexander away and that man was highly educated for his time. Though I would rate achievements as equally if not sometimes more important than wonders. Depending on the wonder of course :)
 
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