rjschell
Established
A friend of mine, an 8x10 fine art photographer and college professor, bought an RX1 9 months ago. It stopped focusing and so he sent it for repair under warranty. Sony refused citing a small ding on the lens mount (which happened 2 wks. after purchase and didn't have any effect on camera functioning). It's called "user induced damage". They wanted to charge him $950. He was able to have them reduce it to $800 (cold comfort). Gone are the 'Timex' days ("It takes a licking and keeps on ticking"). Disposable income is too precious to spend on disposable cameras. End of rant.
Addy101
Well-known
Where are you located? Sony seems to be different in different countries. You quote $, is that US$ ?
Also, how do we know Sony isn't right? You say it is because of a small ding, but maybe there is a completely different reason why they decided it was user induced.
I had several camera repairs done by Sony and they were always under warranty, no problems with Sony here in Holland
Also, how do we know Sony isn't right? You say it is because of a small ding, but maybe there is a completely different reason why they decided it was user induced.
I had several camera repairs done by Sony and they were always under warranty, no problems with Sony here in Holland
rjschell
Established
thegman
Veteran
I assume that the ding is on the focusing ring, and the fault is with focusing? I think had the fault been elsewhere, then I'd agree that Sony is in the wrong, but in this case, I think it's a bit of a grey area.
I quite agree though, it's a tiny (looking) amount of damage to either cause the camera to fail, or of course the camera failed of it's own volition.
It's not like the RX-1 is cheap either, I'd hope for a better level of service for an item of that expense. $800 seems a very large amount for a warranty repair, whether it was user induced or not.
Zeiss fixed an issue on my ZI for free, even though I freely admitted the issue was my fault (splash of sea water).
Fujifilm repaired my Klasse S for free when it died under warranty, even though it was a grey import.
Tejasican
Well-known
There are many companies that when a piece of electronics comes in on warranty look for any ding to void the warranty even if the mark has no relation whatsoever to the problem.
Scrambler
Well-known
It's not the mark on the lens body that would void the warranty, it's the 2-3 foot drop that caused it. Or the accidental thump into a doorway. Or whatever shock the lens had to be given to mark it that way. If the internal damage was likely related to physical shock, Sony are entirely within their rights to reject it.
GaryLH
Veteran
That is true. But then there is the PR related decision to it all as well. Given how fast things are pushed out there these days compared to even 3-5 years ago.. When it comes to people giving your company bad press or even just this thread on rff.
I can c where this would be a grey area.. But given that still in warantee period and such.. They could have done a better job PR wise... Maybe something in line of here is our actual cost to repair, but we will give u a break and only charge u this instead.
When my Fuji xmount 27f2.8 failed on me due to af mechanism as well.. Fuji really went thru the extra mile for me... I got a replacement lens back w/in a day of them recieving my bad one. The guy on the line was very friendly and I was a very happy and impressed w/ the level of service they provided.
I would definitely buy a Fuji again.
Gary
I can c where this would be a grey area.. But given that still in warantee period and such.. They could have done a better job PR wise... Maybe something in line of here is our actual cost to repair, but we will give u a break and only charge u this instead.
When my Fuji xmount 27f2.8 failed on me due to af mechanism as well.. Fuji really went thru the extra mile for me... I got a replacement lens back w/in a day of them recieving my bad one. The guy on the line was very friendly and I was a very happy and impressed w/ the level of service they provided.
I would definitely buy a Fuji again.
Gary
bonatto
looking out
Sorry for the long post, but I wanted to share some thoughts:
Sony's always been a bit of an oddball company, at least in my perception, always sort of pushing against the flow, Minidisc, the long winded persistence of the "memory stick", to name a few, but always seemingly reached for that extra bit of market share without really owning it.
Then came the Nex - and they struck full chord.
Despite this, I still continued seeing them as a sort of "specialty" electronics brand, especially the still camera branch. It was never really tied down to a specific heritage like Leica, Nikon, or Fuji.
In regards to your friend's camera, the damage was done, that dent is physically small, but pressing in about 1mm of machined aluminum on a structurally rigid corner takes force, and more than a little.
As it is on the focusing ring, and focus by wire mechanisms are sensitive, precision electronic setups, it's not surprising that it went bust.
I handled one of these cameras, and although very nicely finished and executed, it felt like a "specialty" camera, not necessarily one I'd bang around. Full frame with a PASM wheel, what's the target market?
A company must stand by its customers if it wants to keep them. This can mean many things, like offering quality and durability from the get-go, or speedy turnaround. It can also mean, reasonable service costs in cases such as this.
I'd like to share a couple of experiences:
Apple has replaced a motherboard on a macbook pro well out of warranty for free.
Fuji UK has kindly sent me a replacement for that pesky x100 charger adaptor piece - free.
Leica has replaced a burnt out M8 charger - free
Ray-Ban replaced a broken lens on a high-end pair of sunglasses for less than 1/10th of its cost.
Epson has provided comprehensive service and parts replacement at a very reasonable cost.
These are but a few "little" things that keep me coming back to the very companies, because
a: it makes me feel confident that they stand by their products and services.
b: it makes me feel like my brand experience matters to them, and it probably does - we've already contributed to their plump profit margins by making the purchase afterall.
Considering the likelyhood of the damage having been caused by an accident, I'm surprised Sony has decided to penalize the customer with a 1/3 levy on the price of the camera.
$950 for specialty Sony service....I wonder how much the parts they are replacing really cost, and if they do indeed cost that much, why does such an expensive camera suffer such a catastrophic damage from run-of-the-mill impact on an exposed surface? It's unfortunate to hear this about your buddy. He's hearing Sony say - "You can either pocket a 2.5k bum camera, or give us another 1k to make it better". Eek.
Maybe, just maybe, as a customer, I will consider these points when opting where to spend my disposable income.
Sony's always been a bit of an oddball company, at least in my perception, always sort of pushing against the flow, Minidisc, the long winded persistence of the "memory stick", to name a few, but always seemingly reached for that extra bit of market share without really owning it.
Then came the Nex - and they struck full chord.
Despite this, I still continued seeing them as a sort of "specialty" electronics brand, especially the still camera branch. It was never really tied down to a specific heritage like Leica, Nikon, or Fuji.
In regards to your friend's camera, the damage was done, that dent is physically small, but pressing in about 1mm of machined aluminum on a structurally rigid corner takes force, and more than a little.
As it is on the focusing ring, and focus by wire mechanisms are sensitive, precision electronic setups, it's not surprising that it went bust.
I handled one of these cameras, and although very nicely finished and executed, it felt like a "specialty" camera, not necessarily one I'd bang around. Full frame with a PASM wheel, what's the target market?
A company must stand by its customers if it wants to keep them. This can mean many things, like offering quality and durability from the get-go, or speedy turnaround. It can also mean, reasonable service costs in cases such as this.
I'd like to share a couple of experiences:
Apple has replaced a motherboard on a macbook pro well out of warranty for free.
Fuji UK has kindly sent me a replacement for that pesky x100 charger adaptor piece - free.
Leica has replaced a burnt out M8 charger - free
Ray-Ban replaced a broken lens on a high-end pair of sunglasses for less than 1/10th of its cost.
Epson has provided comprehensive service and parts replacement at a very reasonable cost.
These are but a few "little" things that keep me coming back to the very companies, because
a: it makes me feel confident that they stand by their products and services.
b: it makes me feel like my brand experience matters to them, and it probably does - we've already contributed to their plump profit margins by making the purchase afterall.
Considering the likelyhood of the damage having been caused by an accident, I'm surprised Sony has decided to penalize the customer with a 1/3 levy on the price of the camera.
$950 for specialty Sony service....I wonder how much the parts they are replacing really cost, and if they do indeed cost that much, why does such an expensive camera suffer such a catastrophic damage from run-of-the-mill impact on an exposed surface? It's unfortunate to hear this about your buddy. He's hearing Sony say - "You can either pocket a 2.5k bum camera, or give us another 1k to make it better". Eek.
Maybe, just maybe, as a customer, I will consider these points when opting where to spend my disposable income.
Red Robin
It Is What It Is
Will you remember?
Will you remember?
With this treatment from sony we're all knowing when replacement time comes, bet you'll run right out and buy another sony. .. ... RIGHT? Guess sony never heard of the old sales rule: ONE SCREW YOU IS WORTH ABOUT A HUNDRED ATTA-BOYS.
Will you remember?
With this treatment from sony we're all knowing when replacement time comes, bet you'll run right out and buy another sony. .. ... RIGHT? Guess sony never heard of the old sales rule: ONE SCREW YOU IS WORTH ABOUT A HUNDRED ATTA-BOYS.
rjschell
Established
I really appreciate Bonatto's comments.
It does surprise me that in other comments there isn't more concern/demand for customer service/care.
What concerns me most is the complication and delicacy of these 'electronic devices'. I'd be afraid to use it on a wedding or even a sports event.
It does surprise me that in other comments there isn't more concern/demand for customer service/care.
What concerns me most is the complication and delicacy of these 'electronic devices'. I'd be afraid to use it on a wedding or even a sports event.
Scrambler
Well-known
PR? It's not a question of Sony backing or not backing their product. It's a case of the camera got broken, probably as a result of "user induced damage." What if it got run over by a truck? Dunked in water? Should these be covered under warranty too, for the sake of PR?
The camera is produced on an assembly line by unskilled labor. It is repaired by a skilled technician who has to dismantle and reassemble the relevent parts. The cost of the parts is trivial. The day's work in the repair is what is being charged for.
Galling? Yes.
Expensive? Yes.
Bad PR? Errr ... not so much.
Put the shoe on the other foot. If they had repaired it for free, would that have sold them any more cameras? And with the need to wipe A7-induced slobber off the home screen of RFF each day, I don't think they will lose too many sales from charging for the repair.
The camera is produced on an assembly line by unskilled labor. It is repaired by a skilled technician who has to dismantle and reassemble the relevent parts. The cost of the parts is trivial. The day's work in the repair is what is being charged for.
Galling? Yes.
Expensive? Yes.
Bad PR? Errr ... not so much.
Put the shoe on the other foot. If they had repaired it for free, would that have sold them any more cameras? And with the need to wipe A7-induced slobber off the home screen of RFF each day, I don't think they will lose too many sales from charging for the repair.
f16sunshine
Moderator
Hmmm
The damage in the image does look superficial in my opinion.
The Sony techs are the experts though. If superficial damage is enough to cause malfunction then these cameras are not very robust at all!
This should concern us folks looking at the latest offering from Sony (A7/r).
Ironically I just posted a thread about a completely opposite service experience from apple.
As well I had a similar good experience with Leica NJ in the past with my old M8. Good service is out there !
The damage in the image does look superficial in my opinion.
The Sony techs are the experts though. If superficial damage is enough to cause malfunction then these cameras are not very robust at all!
This should concern us folks looking at the latest offering from Sony (A7/r).
Ironically I just posted a thread about a completely opposite service experience from apple.
As well I had a similar good experience with Leica NJ in the past with my old M8. Good service is out there !
rjschell
Established
Point of clarification: the ding happened 2 weeks after purchase. The auto focus stopped working almost 9 months later.
Gumby
Veteran
I imagine the problem for Sony is the almost certain knowledge that the canera/lens had been dropped, and they have no idea as to additional damage beyond the dented lens ring and shouldn't be responsible under warranty for issues not related to design or manufacture.
That said, some compnaies are willing to write it off to good will. Ask again, but next time ask a supervisor.
That said, some compnaies are willing to write it off to good will. Ask again, but next time ask a supervisor.
Gumby
Veteran
ssmc
Well-known
I can imagine $950 if the entire lens was trashed, but maybe (and this is not in any way in Sony's defense) there are no separate spares, and the whole unit has to be swapped out, and they're just using the ding as an excuse not to honour the warranty (which they are probably able to do if the right language is in the fine print)
I am reluctant to buy anything Sony unless it's a) cheap, and b) on sale, solely because of bad service experiences with them. My PCM-M10 died (I suspected it was the on-off switch) about 2 months out of warranty. I contacted Sony Australia to ask if they could repair it and made it clear that I was willing to pay for the work since it was out of warranty. No chance - they tried to sell me an MP3 player, and explained that they "do not offer repair service for their pro-audio gear" (WTF???) I asked about buying a switch and they said I couldn't because I was not an authorised repairer (but if there are no repair services, who can buy any parts?) After this conversation, which was much more Kafka-esque than I can relate here, I decided I had nothing to lose by taking it apart myself, and found that dismantling beyond a certain point was impossible without destroying a beauty panel on the casing (which you would have to buy as a spare part...)
So I bought a superceded model iPod touch on sale, which works great.
My dad is a bit of an audiophile and some years ago bought a top-of-the-line Sony CD player that cost a couple of grand. When the laser diode failed he took it back to the store (who diagnosed it and to their credit did a great job going to bat for him) and after some to-and-fro-ing discovered that spares were no longer stocked for that model :bang: Apparently in Sony-land, no matter how expensive it is, it's disposable...
I am reluctant to buy anything Sony unless it's a) cheap, and b) on sale, solely because of bad service experiences with them. My PCM-M10 died (I suspected it was the on-off switch) about 2 months out of warranty. I contacted Sony Australia to ask if they could repair it and made it clear that I was willing to pay for the work since it was out of warranty. No chance - they tried to sell me an MP3 player, and explained that they "do not offer repair service for their pro-audio gear" (WTF???) I asked about buying a switch and they said I couldn't because I was not an authorised repairer (but if there are no repair services, who can buy any parts?) After this conversation, which was much more Kafka-esque than I can relate here, I decided I had nothing to lose by taking it apart myself, and found that dismantling beyond a certain point was impossible without destroying a beauty panel on the casing (which you would have to buy as a spare part...)
So I bought a superceded model iPod touch on sale, which works great.
My dad is a bit of an audiophile and some years ago bought a top-of-the-line Sony CD player that cost a couple of grand. When the laser diode failed he took it back to the store (who diagnosed it and to their credit did a great job going to bat for him) and after some to-and-fro-ing discovered that spares were no longer stocked for that model :bang: Apparently in Sony-land, no matter how expensive it is, it's disposable...
noisycheese
Normal(ish) Human
I would like to extend a heartfelt thank you to all who contributed to this thread. You have saved me a world of heartache.
As a result of all that I have learned, I will never buy anything from Sony and will warn friends and family about Sony's corporate philosophy on customer relations which for all the world seems can be summed up as 3F (Fleece 'em, F*** 'em, Forget 'em).
As a result of all that I have learned, I will never buy anything from Sony and will warn friends and family about Sony's corporate philosophy on customer relations which for all the world seems can be summed up as 3F (Fleece 'em, F*** 'em, Forget 'em).
f16sunshine
Moderator
Fair warning here. This is in fact truly how Sony operates.
Lifetimes are short in Sony-land.
Paying for high dollar items does not bring high quality after sale care!
lam
Well-known
My goodness. You think Sony made these FF compacts for years and know all the ins and outs by the judgement on this thread.
Your friend purchased a $2,000+ Full-frame compact, the first of it's kind. He dented it, for whatever reason carelessness, whatever. It's a fairly hefty ding. These are finely adjusted tools--Not Nikon FM's. I'm sorry Sony took that decision on his case, maybe he can appeal or call for another rep.
I once bought a Sigma DP2X within warranty and the focus stopped. They wouldn't honor it due to it being a grey market camera so I paid repair costs.... I had a Leica M8 that the sensor had dead pixels, and paid for the repair when I sold it to someone. I've paid for Apple repairs on products out of warranty like main boards and batteries.. so what? Is everything supposed to be free now? Is a manufacturer warranty including accidental drop page and abuse? This is news to me.
This happens with every brand, regardless of how many lovely stories with Apple, Nikon, Canon whatever it is.. the harsh judgement of "I'LL NEVER BUY X BRAND DUE TO X PRINCIPLES X THIS X THAT" is just .. retarded. I'm sorry but that is so short-sighted. You can have your opinion and I will kindly respect it but, haha. I've been that way and then go and buy said product.
Your friend purchased a $2,000+ Full-frame compact, the first of it's kind. He dented it, for whatever reason carelessness, whatever. It's a fairly hefty ding. These are finely adjusted tools--Not Nikon FM's. I'm sorry Sony took that decision on his case, maybe he can appeal or call for another rep.
I once bought a Sigma DP2X within warranty and the focus stopped. They wouldn't honor it due to it being a grey market camera so I paid repair costs.... I had a Leica M8 that the sensor had dead pixels, and paid for the repair when I sold it to someone. I've paid for Apple repairs on products out of warranty like main boards and batteries.. so what? Is everything supposed to be free now? Is a manufacturer warranty including accidental drop page and abuse? This is news to me.
This happens with every brand, regardless of how many lovely stories with Apple, Nikon, Canon whatever it is.. the harsh judgement of "I'LL NEVER BUY X BRAND DUE TO X PRINCIPLES X THIS X THAT" is just .. retarded. I'm sorry but that is so short-sighted. You can have your opinion and I will kindly respect it but, haha. I've been that way and then go and buy said product.
Josh Souza
Newbie
Just to throw this out there, my NEX-7 had a grip falling off, the glue just let go. It was a month out of warranty and Sony wanted me to pay, they looked deeper into it and found it to be a common issue and replaced it for free.
Like above, you can't count one situation as the end all be all.. talking about getting free chargers (3$ in plastic and shipping) is much different then having a professional take apart and replace stuff you carelessly broke.
Electronics are not mechanical hunks of metal.
Like above, you can't count one situation as the end all be all.. talking about getting free chargers (3$ in plastic and shipping) is much different then having a professional take apart and replace stuff you carelessly broke.
Electronics are not mechanical hunks of metal.