CCD vs CMOS, again

[Benjamin Marks]

Never could tell the difference between CCD and CMOS. Newer sensors have better high ISO characteristics. Older ones are actually pretty good at native ISOs.

 

[David Hughes]

That's odd. I've managed to find the factory instruction manual for every camera I've purchased since 2000 or so online first, whether the camera was new or old. And that's a fairly large number of cameras when I think back on it ... almost embarrassingly large. :angel:

G

Hi,

Not so odd after all's said and done; you and I live in a different part of the world and so things like postage come into it. I've seen real, original manuals for sale but with postage to England of 40, 50 or even 90 US$ for something I know could be slipped into an envelope.

Also the older ones often turn out to be advertising brochures and not the manuals; although brochures are great for checking details and sending me off on another wild goose chase. Even so called expert dealers screw that up and, lastly, we don't have an identical list of cameras etc to compare. Like CCD's and CMOS again...

Regards, David

PS And, of course, although PDF's are the same - usually - word for word you can't carry them around with you and apart from printing the odd, useful page I don't like the idea of printing them or even an greatly reduced version.

 

[David Hughes]

As a search might find this I'll add that the other problem with user manuals on the internet is that several versions of them exist and you have to know which one to chase after. Often you look for reference and get basic and so on. In the USA you are quite likely to get the USA version but supposing you want another...

Worse still, some cameras have different names in different parts of the world; The C-1000L I have is the D-600 from memory and so I had no end of trouble finding this countries version.

And sometimes the camera has the same name all over the world but the manual has the other countries reference on the cover and, again, a search gets you the wrong one. The Panasonic DMC-LC1SG, PP and EB are good examples but I'm being fussy. Although I'm making the point to help people searching for them.

Try the SG version first - it will prove my point - and then the PP and finally the EB which is England's.

Regards, David

 

[Godfrey]

Nowadays I find it far, far more convenient to have the manual in PDF format than in paper form. With PDF format, I can search for specific topics and references within the book much more efficiently. And I can have the manuals for all of my cameras (and other things...) with me at all times on my phone or tablet. Different names and such for different market regions, that's not a real problem, and it's occasionally illuminating to see manuals addressing different market regions as sometimes the explanations are clearer and/or some details differ. With a PDF, you can also use a translator app on alternative language versions.

And then there are other variations ... For instance, I have a couple of different instruction manuals for the Agfa Rondinax 35 processing tank in both the original German language and in UK English translation. The manuals have period photographs in them, and the differences between the photographs in the two language versions are both funny and interesting in a cultural sense.

I like having the printed paper manuals too, occasionally, as it is part of the provenance of a device. But if you're just looking for information, the PDF format wins hands down.

Might as well mention one of my favorite sites for older camera manuals: https://www.butkus.org/chinon/index.html
I contribute to this site's upkeep every year. 🙂

G

 

[Bille]

I ran across this blurb on the internet. I do not know the author and would not throw away my CMOS cameras but I do agree that CCD has some special magic to it. His point that Hasselblad still makes CCD sensors has some weight. Anyway, here is the article. I'm hanging on to my M8.2 and M9. What do you think?

https://www.digitalcameraworld.com/...ll-the-best-so-im-selling-all-my-cmos-cameras

The samples are pretty ugly. I see highlights close to burning out and greens that look nasty oversaturated. You could make every other Raw file look like that.

 

[boojum]

Hi,

Not so odd after all's said and done; you and I live in a different part of the world and so things like postage come into it. I've seen real, original manuals for sale but with postage to England of 40, 50 or even 90 US$ for something I know could be slipped into an envelope.

Also the older ones often turn out to be advertising brochures and not the manuals; although brochures are great for checking details and sending me off on another wild goose chase. Even so called expert dealers screw that up and, lastly, we don't have an identical list of cameras etc to compare. Like CCD's and CMOS again...

Regards, David

PS And, of course, although PDF's are the same - usually - word for word you can't carry them around with you and apart from printing the odd, useful page I don't like the idea of printing them or even an greatly reduced version.

Pu thtem on your phone. That is my solution. And carry reading glasses. ;o)

 

[Bob Michaels]

Never could tell the difference between CCD and CMOS..................

Benjamin, not many of us in that tribe but you are not alone. Boojum posted two photos of the same green house but shot with two different cameras / sensors. Photos looked the same to me. But different audiences look at different things.One thing I have come to realize doing a number of photo exhibits over the years, the 1% of that audience who are technical photographers look for tech details while the other 99% of the audience only looks for content / impact / message.

Meanwhile, it does not bother me that I do not know what sensor is in my current cameras: Fuji XT-1, XPro-1, original X-100. I only know I make prints I like from their output.

My next exhibit is in October. If anyone asks a question about sensors or other tech details at the opening, I'll be shocked and have to wing it.

 

[Pál_K]

A little digression here..,

Manuals for film cameras are nice tactile works of art which also happen to be useful - at least for me. You know you have a problem when you buy manuals at camera shows for cameras you don’t yet own. Years ago I bought a Pentax KX manual and also bought two XD-11 manuals at different times. After about 10 years I finally have those cameras.

The colorful fold-out brochure for the Nikon L35AF nicely describes the camera’s functions - the best “at a glance” manual I’ve seen. Conversely, the Fuji Instax Neo90 brochure is almost hieroglyphic in its complexity, but all the information is there and understandable once you grok the mindset from which it was written.

Digital camera manuals are too big for me to read cover-to-cover before the temptation to use the camera overpowers me. Thus, I’ve read only portions of my D700 manual. The Pentax K-10D manual, however, is very readable, easy to understand, and well organized.

 

[boojum]

A little digression here..,

<snip>

Digital camera manuals are too big for me to read cover-to-cover before the temptation to use the camera overpowers me. Thus, I’ve read only portions of my D700 manual. The Pentax K-10D manual, however, is very readable, easy to understand, and well organized.

Then add the aftermarket book which is generally huge but explains all the things the manufacturer's manual attempted but failed at.

 

[David Hughes]

Pu thtem on your phone. That is my solution. And carry reading glasses. ;o)

Well, um, yes, but if I was the sort that carried and used a mobile phone, why would I be carrying a camera? My wife's mobile turns out pretty decent photo's and has more mp's than my favourite cameras. Also books do not nag you to upgrade to the "pro" version and so on and so forth.

Regards, David

 

[David Hughes]

Nowadays I find it far, far more convenient to have the manual in PDF format than in paper form. With PDF format, I can search for specific topics and references within the book much more efficiently. And I can have the manuals for all of my cameras (and other things...) with me at all times on my phone or tablet. Different names and such for different market regions, that's not a real problem, and it's occasionally illuminating to see manuals addressing different market regions as sometimes the explanations are clearer and/or some details differ. With a PDF, you can also use a translator app on alternative language versions.

And then there are other variations ... For instance, I have a couple of different instruction manuals for the Agfa Rondinax 35 processing tank in both the original German language and in UK English translation. The manuals have period photographs in them, and the differences between the photographs in the two language versions are both funny and interesting in a cultural sense.

I like having the printed paper manuals too, occasionally, as it is part of the provenance of a device. But if you're just looking for information, the PDF format wins hands down.

Might as well mention one of my favorite sites for older camera manuals: https://www.butkus.org/chinon/index.html
I contribute to this site's upkeep every year. 🙂

G

Again, we both seem to agree but are divided over the details.

PDF's are very useful but to look at them I have to have the computer switched on and that can be a struggle sometimes with the PR people for some software I looked at last year. One or two of them want to take over the computer and I have to waste time deleting whatever's running the advert; worse still they then complain that the ad blocker is on.

Books are stored with the camera and so there's no problem - once I've managed to get the thing out for use.

I'm also against mobile phones on principle; the principle being that I like to escape them when I want to do something else - like think or go for a walk and so on. And where I go on holiday there's never a signal anyway but they are useful when I'm abroad.

Regards, David

 

[Godfrey]

Again, we both seem to agree but are divided over the details.

PDF's are very useful but to look at them I have to have the computer switched on and that can be a struggle sometimes with the PR people for some software I looked at last year. One or two of them want to take over the computer and I have to waste time deleting whatever's running the advert; worse still they then complain that the ad blocker is on.

Books are stored with the camera and so there's no problem - once I've managed to get the thing out for use.

I'm also against mobile phones on principle; the principle being that I like to escape them when I want to do something else - like think or go for a walk and so on. And where I go on holiday there's never a signal anyway but they are useful when I'm abroad.

Regards, David

This is getting somewhat off-track.

I carry my iPhone for communications and navigation, and all the things it does for access to information, playing music, and such. I occasionally make photographs with it, but they're mostly forensic/documentarian type quick shots for doing things like recording mileage on my car when I buy fuel, etc. Carrying manuals in my iPhone, and in my iPad, is extremely useful access to information and a heck of a lot less crap to carry about when traveling or making photographs in the field. I also have both reading and audio books on my iPhone for entertainment when driving or traveling long distances.

When I want the iPhone to be silent, I turn it off. Period.
It's never in the way, I don't have to escape from it.
None of my devices shoves advertisements in my face unless I allow it to, which is very rare. Machines don't get to win, ever.

I carry any one of several different film and digital cameras to do Photography, when I want to do Photography. There's no conflict between doing Photography with a camera and utilizing an iPhone or an iPad for what the latter are useful for. They complement each other.

What this all has to do with the CCD vs CMOS debate is pretty far-fetched. But I suppose as long as we're wasting our time on that nonsense, we can waste it on this as well... :angel:

G

 

[Manekshaw]

m9 with 50mm 2.5 summarit

 

[David Hughes]

This is getting somewhat off-track.

I carry my iPhone for communications and navigation, and all the things it does for access to information, playing music, and such. I occasionally make photographs with it, but they're mostly forensic/documentarian type quick shots for doing things like recording mileage on my car when I buy fuel, etc. Carrying manuals in my iPhone, and in my iPad, is extremely useful access to information and a heck of a lot less crap to carry about when traveling or making photographs in the field. I also have both reading and audio books on my iPhone for entertainment when driving or traveling long distances.

When I want the iPhone to be silent, I turn it off. Period.
It's never in the way, I don't have to escape from it.
None of my devices shoves advertisements in my face unless I allow it to, which is very rare. Machines don't get to win, ever.

I carry any one of several different film and digital cameras to do Photography, when I want to do Photography. There's no conflict between doing Photography with a camera and utilizing an iPhone or an iPad for what the latter are useful for. They complement each other.

What this all has to do with the CCD vs CMOS debate is pretty far-fetched. But I suppose as long as we're wasting our time on that nonsense, we can waste it on this as well... :angel:

G

It is making the point that we all go about things our own sweet way and usually get the same results. That seems very relevant to the matter.

Regards, David

 

[Godfrey]

It is making the point that we all go about things our own sweet way and usually get the same results. That seems very relevant to the matter.

Regards, David

Um, well, "we all go about things our own sweet way and usually get the same results" doesn't really make for a lot of distinctiveness in the "how vs results" evaluation, which is usually the point of coming to a discussion forum to discuss different ways of doing things.

If it truly doesn't matter, what's the point of discussing things at all? Just do what you want and get what you get, it'll all be the same, mostly... ?? I see a problem with that.

G

 

[Out to Lunch]

To contribute to this diversion: the 'same' results...maybe but at a very high cost. During my working life, I traveled the globe and during that 30-year period, I was royally ripped off by banks, mail, and telephone companies. Today, thanks to the internet and mobile phones and tablets, I can get, either the same or better results with less hassle and at a much lower cost. Cheers, OtL

 

[Sonnar Brian]

I have the long Data Sheet for the sensor in the M9 and M8, and the sensor used in the first Pixii in PDF only.

The data sheet for the sensors for most cameras is not available. Would be easy to compare performance of they were.

 

[boojum]

I have the long Data Sheet for the sensor in the M9 and M8, and the sensor used in the first Pixii in PDF only.

The data sheet for the sensors for most cameras is not available. Would be easy to compare performance of they were.

I am not sure what the sensor data sheet holds but if it is more complex than coffee blends and upstream/downstream I may be beyond my depth. But it could be interesting.

There are those who say there is no difference, those who say the difference is minimal and can be fixed in post and those who say the differences are distinct and unique. I am sure there are other opinions, too. I see differences and whether others see them or not I trust my eyes more than their opinions. We all know how much weight opinions have. Well, most of us do.

The posting of DNG's to my Google Drive had images which surprised me as I thought the M9 would be the hands-down winner. Not so, not this time. I will do some more tests as most of us know that one test is worth about as much as one opinion. However, many tests are worth more than an infinity of opinions. How simple science would be if it could be solved with opinions, like back when the earth was still flat and the sun revolved around it. Those were the days.

 

[Sonnar Brian]

The Kodak Data Sheets were intended for someone buying the sensor and building their own cameras.

I miss the days when most sensors had that level of data available.

 

[Yokosuka Mike]

The best Kodak information I ever read was the "How To Take Good Pictures" book.

I bought the original version in the '70s. I read and reread it until it fell apart. Best photo book ever!

It's kind of the Strunk & White "The Elements of Style" for photography.

All the best,
Mike