Cement separation? bought a lemon?

[juanfarrell]

Hi everyone, first time posting, but I have been reading threads off this community for years. I recently bought an original s3 + nikkor-s 5cm 1.4 set off ebay that hasn't arrived yet. The item description read that the lens had only some tiny dust inside (no separation), but upon closer inspection of the pictures I see what looks to be cement separation close to the rear element? fortunately the seller offers free returns, was wondering if anyone is able to identify this issue and to what extent will it affect image quality? Also is it going to get worse over time and should I return it? I understand that I won't know 100% until I get to test the camera/lens but was wondering if anyone can give me a heads up. Thanks!

 

[David Murphy]

Looks like just a a trace of separation on the very edge of the rear elements. I really doubt it would perceptibly affect results. This is a common condition with older lenses, but can become a real problem if it spreads (not too likely I think in this case as the lens is already very old). This is my spin, but I'm sure there's others here who know more.

This defect should reduce the value of the lens over that of a really pristine copy so I hope you got a good deal. The Nikkor 50/1.4 is not a particularly expensive lens as far as rangefinder lenses go, but a really excellent prime. If the camera is in good working shape I'd not sweat the condition of this lens too much. It's harder to find a reliable vintage S3 than a reliable vintage 50/1.4 IMO.

 

[jonmanjiro]

Looks like just a a trace of separation on the very edge of the rear elements. I really doubt it would perceptibly affect results. This is a common condition with older lenses, but can become a real problem if it spreads (not too likely I think in this case as the lens is already very old). This is my spin, but I'm sure there's others here who know more.

David basically nailed it.

This type of edge separation is common with this particular lens. I've owned/used a copy with a considerably worse case of separation and the images were absolutely fine. No problems at all. So I doubt you'll notice any impact on image quality. Also the lens is 60+ years old and that's as far as the separation has spread, so the lens should be ok for quite some time yet if you take care of it (no knocks or drops). If the price was right, I'd keep it.

 

[juanfarrell]

David basically nailed it.

This type of edge separation is common with this particular lens. I've owned/used a copy with a considerably worse case of separation and the images were absolutely fine. No problems at all. So I doubt you'll notice any impact on image quality. Also the lens is 60+ years old and that's as far as the separation has spread, so the lens should be ok for quite some time yet if you take care of it (no knocks or drops). If the price was right, I'd keep it.

To be honest, I don't know if the price was right for a lens with this issue. I paid 1k for the camera + lens, but its kind of a collectors set (in mint condition apart from the rear element). And I've seen this camera and lens combination go for anywhere between 600 to 1200 which is a wide price range. I thought that the condition and boxes would make it retain its value if in a couple of years I decide to get a leica or realize that 35mm RFs are not for me (love my GW690), but I'm not sure anymore with the edge separation if id be able to make my money back...

 

[fireblade]

That's a very good deal.

 

[juanfarrell]

@vincenzo us dollars? you thinks its fair even with the separation?

 

[jonmanjiro]

I paid 1k for the camera + lens, but its kind of a collectors set (in mint condition apart from the rear element).

Its a fair price. The fact that its a complete boxed set is far more important to a collector than the minor lens edge separation.

 

[splitimageview]

Agree with the above comments. Beautiful set! Even the lens hood has the original box...

 

[dourbalistar]

@vincenzo us dollars? you thinks its fair even with the separation?

OP, if you're not satisfied with that one, there's a S3 with a Nikkor 50/1.4 for sale here in the Classifieds. No box or accessories, but the price seems very competitive. Not sure if it's sold yet. No affiliation, but if you buy it, that'll help reduce the temptation for me. 😀
https://rangefinderforum.com/photopost-classifieds/showproduct.php?product=56028

 

[Deleted member 65559]

Its a fair price. The fact that its a complete boxed set is far more important to a collector than the minor lens edge separation.

No doubt, you'll be able to get your money back. The camera is in lovely condition and some collector will want it & the boxes

 

[juanfarrell]

OP, if you're not satisfied with that one, there's a S3 with a Nikkor 50/1.4 for sale here in the Classifieds. No box or accessories, but the price seems very competitive. Not sure if it's sold yet. No affiliation, but if you buy it, that'll help reduce the temptation for me. 😀
https://rangefinderforum.com/photopost-classifieds/showproduct.php?product=56028

@doubalistar hahaha thanks! I need to get my hands on it, shoot a roll and see if its a keeper. By then that Canadian s3 might be gone, but thanks for the heads up. I think that's also a reasonable deal for that price, you should pull the trigger if you have the cash. I usually wait for the perfect deal to come by, but when I saw this guy was including even the original nikon box for the UV filter I knew the owner must've been incredibly careful with everything, well see.

 

[Highway 61]

As other posters who know what they're talking about wrote, that's a very common issue with that particular lens. I have owned several and many of them were showing it, at different levels. I also had one example with no sign of separation at all but it wasn't better than the others.

For some reason the chrome versions of the Nikkor-S-C 50mm f/1.4 don't have it so I presume that Nikon change their cement at some point. The same kind of separation can also show on some early Nikkors in F-mount.

You should try your lens out first. True to say that you may very well discover that the photos come out perfectly fine.
If not, you may see some diffraction and some evidence of optical aberrations.
Be aware that most of those lenses show quite a high amount of vignetting even still visible at f/8 and f/11 with films not forgiving under-exposure, but this has nothing to do with the rear group edge separation issue.

The triangular strap rings with their clip-on plastic guards are not contemporary of your S3. Those came out in the 1980's with the Nikon SLRs marketed at that time. And the plastic guards are mounted the wrong way. 😉
Also, I would remove what looks to be a piece of rubber glued on the up edge of the camera body over the strap eyelet (near the PC socket), to check whether this thing wouldn't hide a dent in the top cover.

 

[James24]

Is the lens serial number written on the box? If not, and the separation issue really bothers you, you could just buy another lens.

There's a nice looking lens in the Classifieds right now, but to buy that one you'd have to buy another S3 that goes with it!

 

[juanfarrell]

As other posters who know what they're talking about wrote, that's a very common issue with that particular lens. I have owned several and many of them were showing it, at different levels. I also had one example with no sign of separation at all but it wasn't better than the others.

For some reason the chrome versions of the Nikkor-S-C 50mm f/1.4 don't have it so I presume that Nikon change their cement at some point. The same kind of separation can also show on some early Nikkors in F-mount.

You should try your lens out first. True to say that you may very well discover that the photos come out perfectly fine.
If not, you may see some diffraction and some evidence of optical aberrations.
Be aware that most of those lenses show quite a high amount of vignetting even still visible at f/8 and f/11 with films not forgiving under-exposure, but this has nothing to do with the rear group edge separation issue.

The triangular strap rings with their clip-on plastic guards are not contemporary of your S3. Those came out in the 1980's with the Nikon SLRs marketed at that time. And the plastic guards are mounted the wrong way. 😉
Also, I would remove what looks to be a piece of rubber glued on the up edge of the camera body over the strap eyelet (near the PC socket), to check whether this thing wouldn't hide a dent in the top cover.

Thank you so much for all this information! I'm really impressed how you noticed so many details from just one picture. Is there any particular film you'd recommend to be able to assess the vignetting? I usually shoot Hp5 and portra 160, 400 and 800. I have noticed vignetting on my GW960 on portra 400, but idk if there's a film that's more prone to show it?

One final question. If the separation is actually affecting the image, would it compromise edge sharpness? What should I look out for in the scans?

Thank in advance!

 

[jonmanjiro]

I'm 99.9% certain you won't notice image quality issues with the lens, but if if you do, Highway 61 covered it.

you may see some diffraction and some evidence of optical aberrations.

 

[Highway 61]

A new Nikon SP + black Nikkor-S-C 5cm f/1.4 outfit just popped out at the RFF Classifieds.

The lens looks to be in excellent shape but it definitely shows the rear group edge separation issue too, at what looks to be, to my eye, the same degree as the OP's lens. Really a very, very common issue with that lens.