windraider
Established
Hi,
I’m new here and am glad to find a community of FSU rangefinder users.
I have two Kiev 4s and I keep getting photos that are overexposed at the top whenever I switch to shutter speeds above 1/250. When I removed the lens and looked through the body, I noticed that the shutter curtains opens by itself while I am changing shutter speeds to above 1/125. The higher the speed the larger the gap in the shutter curtains. After releasing the shutter and advancing the film, the shutter curtains close fully while still set at speeds above 1/250, hence this problem only occurs when I am changing to a faster speed.
This happens on both my Kievs - is this normal?
Have anyone of you experienced the same problem?
I’m new here and am glad to find a community of FSU rangefinder users.
I have two Kiev 4s and I keep getting photos that are overexposed at the top whenever I switch to shutter speeds above 1/250. When I removed the lens and looked through the body, I noticed that the shutter curtains opens by itself while I am changing shutter speeds to above 1/125. The higher the speed the larger the gap in the shutter curtains. After releasing the shutter and advancing the film, the shutter curtains close fully while still set at speeds above 1/250, hence this problem only occurs when I am changing to a faster speed.
This happens on both my Kievs - is this normal?
Have anyone of you experienced the same problem?
Pherdinand
the snow must go on
Do you change the sh speed when you have already wound the film/cocked the shutter? Coz that's the normal way for a Kiev, although in lots of cases people report that it doesn not matter.
I have a kiev dismantled here and i was curious enough to check lots of the mechanics inside, in the last days. It is indeed normal to cock first then change speed.
What happens in the shutter, briefly, is: When you cock the shutter, the two curtains move upwards together. When you set sh speed, you create a variable-width gap between the two. When you release the shutter, the two blinds run down *together* having the gap between thus exposing the film.
In details: When you cock the shutter, the two shutter curtains (closed!) are pulled upwards, the top curtain being rolled up on the top drum. When the bottom curtain arrives to its upper position, it is moved towards the film plane a bit by two metal flaps on the sides, and the locking between the two curtains is disengaged by this. The bottom curtain is kept in the upper position by a little lever, while the top one can travel further up, depending on the shutter speed. Now, this creates a gap between the two curtains (which you don't see from the outside because the frame is blinded at this moment by the bottom curtain only).
Now, if you change the shutter speed at this moment, you only change the position of the top curtain. Going to slower speeds the top curtain gets wound up even more (that's why it feels a bit harder to change the sh speed downwards after winding).
If you go for faster speeds, the gap has to be reduced, thus the top curtain will be released back towards the bottom one.
At 1/1250 (or 1/1000) s top speed, the gap between the two is about 2mm only!but it';s still there.
At fast speeds, the pressing of the sh release releases BOTH curtains in the same time; they travel together to the bottom keeping the same width of the gap between them.
At slow speeds (i think 1/25 and below), first the bottom curtain is released, rolls down and a timing mechanism is engaged, which dictates when the top curtain will be released. When it's released, it will run down and close the shutter.
At any speeds the 'capping' that is interconnecting the two curtains will happen only at the bottom of the frame, when the shutter is apparently closed as you'd see from outside.
The following can cause your kiev's problem. Changing to higher speeds as i said releases partially the top shutter blind,reducing the gap. In the same time the bottom blind has to be kept in place. Since the two curtains are interconnected with ribbons (so that they move together when you press sh release) and the thin copper lever keeping the bottom curtain in upper, cocked position is very flimsy, i would expect that due to the movement of the top curtain the bottom one gets *also released*. So instead of reducing the gap between the two blinds, both blinds move downwards. The gap remains the same so the shutter speed is in fact NOT changed thus you get overexposure. SInce the bottom curtain also moves downwards ehen changing the sh speed, you can see the gap appearing in the front of the film, which you should not see until pressing the sh release.
It's either the copper locking lever for the bottom curtain that fails, should be bent back into place, OR, the two shutter ribbons are damaged (normal after so long time) and the bottom curtain cannot slide freely on them, being forced to move together with the top one when changing sh speeds.
Or both of these.
My kiev's shutter ribbon simply broke, so the shutter failed. It's usual for kievs and prewar contaxes to have this problem. The ribbon shows alot of wear on it.
Hm,i wonder if i was clear enough.
I have a kiev dismantled here and i was curious enough to check lots of the mechanics inside, in the last days. It is indeed normal to cock first then change speed.
What happens in the shutter, briefly, is: When you cock the shutter, the two curtains move upwards together. When you set sh speed, you create a variable-width gap between the two. When you release the shutter, the two blinds run down *together* having the gap between thus exposing the film.
In details: When you cock the shutter, the two shutter curtains (closed!) are pulled upwards, the top curtain being rolled up on the top drum. When the bottom curtain arrives to its upper position, it is moved towards the film plane a bit by two metal flaps on the sides, and the locking between the two curtains is disengaged by this. The bottom curtain is kept in the upper position by a little lever, while the top one can travel further up, depending on the shutter speed. Now, this creates a gap between the two curtains (which you don't see from the outside because the frame is blinded at this moment by the bottom curtain only).
Now, if you change the shutter speed at this moment, you only change the position of the top curtain. Going to slower speeds the top curtain gets wound up even more (that's why it feels a bit harder to change the sh speed downwards after winding).
If you go for faster speeds, the gap has to be reduced, thus the top curtain will be released back towards the bottom one.
At 1/1250 (or 1/1000) s top speed, the gap between the two is about 2mm only!but it';s still there.
At fast speeds, the pressing of the sh release releases BOTH curtains in the same time; they travel together to the bottom keeping the same width of the gap between them.
At slow speeds (i think 1/25 and below), first the bottom curtain is released, rolls down and a timing mechanism is engaged, which dictates when the top curtain will be released. When it's released, it will run down and close the shutter.
At any speeds the 'capping' that is interconnecting the two curtains will happen only at the bottom of the frame, when the shutter is apparently closed as you'd see from outside.
The following can cause your kiev's problem. Changing to higher speeds as i said releases partially the top shutter blind,reducing the gap. In the same time the bottom blind has to be kept in place. Since the two curtains are interconnected with ribbons (so that they move together when you press sh release) and the thin copper lever keeping the bottom curtain in upper, cocked position is very flimsy, i would expect that due to the movement of the top curtain the bottom one gets *also released*. So instead of reducing the gap between the two blinds, both blinds move downwards. The gap remains the same so the shutter speed is in fact NOT changed thus you get overexposure. SInce the bottom curtain also moves downwards ehen changing the sh speed, you can see the gap appearing in the front of the film, which you should not see until pressing the sh release.
It's either the copper locking lever for the bottom curtain that fails, should be bent back into place, OR, the two shutter ribbons are damaged (normal after so long time) and the bottom curtain cannot slide freely on them, being forced to move together with the top one when changing sh speeds.
Or both of these.
My kiev's shutter ribbon simply broke, so the shutter failed. It's usual for kievs and prewar contaxes to have this problem. The ribbon shows alot of wear on it.
Hm,i wonder if i was clear enough.
pangkievrange
Established
windraider said:
Just slightly bend the hook inward to ensure that the hook catches the curtain when the curtain comes down during the speed change from low to high.
pangkievrange
dll927
Well-known
Given that Kievs were copies of Contax, the shutter problem is nothing new. Even the Contaxes were known for shutter problems. It seems that Zeiss couldn't copy the Leica-type shutter because of patent problems. Which raises the question of why everybody else used cloth focal-plane shutters.
I forget just where, but I read a website done by some guy who had repaired Contaxes and Kievs for 20 years, and he said there was no reason for the insistence on cocking the shutter before changing the speeds. His view was that it was a Zorki problem. But since on most cameras it doesn't make any difference, the idea with FSU cameras apparently comes from the Zorki matter, so everybody does it with Kievs out of habit, too.
I forget just where, but I read a website done by some guy who had repaired Contaxes and Kievs for 20 years, and he said there was no reason for the insistence on cocking the shutter before changing the speeds. His view was that it was a Zorki problem. But since on most cameras it doesn't make any difference, the idea with FSU cameras apparently comes from the Zorki matter, so everybody does it with Kievs out of habit, too.
Pherdinand
the snow must go on
I have read a few oppinions on both sides, regarding the correct order of cocking and speed-setting. I myself now understand how the shutter works and that makes me believe that it was designed to first cock then set speed.
I agree with the view presented on the Kiev survival site, lemme quote those folks:
"First a myth to dispel, you will not harm or break anything by changing shutter speed before advancing. You may however, cause a few things internally not to actuate properly."
http://www3.telus.net/public/kaylalyn/changing shutter speeds.html
Also, unlike a leaf shutter, the springs in the Kiev shutter are ALWAYS tensioned. Even if it's not cocked. That's part of the design. Therefore, it also does not matter much if you cock the shutter and leave it like that for longer periods.
Finally, on the same page there are a few pics with the "back film plane casting"removed
http://www3.telus.net/public/kaylalyn/the basics back film plane casting removal.html
There you can see the little copper locking lever on the top and the double-hook on the edge of the bottom shutter curtain (the shutter is not cocked on the image). I'm talking about the one before the last pic on that linked page.
I agree with the view presented on the Kiev survival site, lemme quote those folks:
"First a myth to dispel, you will not harm or break anything by changing shutter speed before advancing. You may however, cause a few things internally not to actuate properly."
http://www3.telus.net/public/kaylalyn/changing shutter speeds.html
Also, unlike a leaf shutter, the springs in the Kiev shutter are ALWAYS tensioned. Even if it's not cocked. That's part of the design. Therefore, it also does not matter much if you cock the shutter and leave it like that for longer periods.
Finally, on the same page there are a few pics with the "back film plane casting"removed
http://www3.telus.net/public/kaylalyn/the basics back film plane casting removal.html
There you can see the little copper locking lever on the top and the double-hook on the edge of the bottom shutter curtain (the shutter is not cocked on the image). I'm talking about the one before the last pic on that linked page.
Pherdinand
the snow must go on
dll927 said:
I think the answer lies in the year of the manufacture of these cameras. In the thirties most cameras used leaf shutters. I think only leica used focal plane cloth shutter in those years, and contax had the metal vertical one. The copying of the leica shutter came later.
But i'm not sure about this.
doubs43
Well-known
Just my opinion but if you use cameras that can only be set for shutter speed after cocking, I'd make it a habit to do that with all cameras. Then it's automatic and you're safe no matter which one you're using at the time.
Walker
Walker
N
Nikon Bob
Guest
Walker
That sounds like a very good failsafe routine.
Bob
That sounds like a very good failsafe routine.
Bob
windraider
Established
Thanks all for the great info.
Pherdinand: Appreciate your detailed descriptions, which was very enlightening and helpful, and yes I always cock the shutter before changing speed. Looks like it is a case of a worn lever as the other speeds work ok.
But just so that I don’t go bending the wrong levers out of place, could anyone give me the description on where this “copper locking lever” is located? Is it the little tab/catch just below the top film rail which can be seen when the film back is removed? Do I need to remove/dismantle the film plane casting to access the lever?
A picture would definitely help.
Pherdinand: Appreciate your detailed descriptions, which was very enlightening and helpful, and yes I always cock the shutter before changing speed. Looks like it is a case of a worn lever as the other speeds work ok.
But just so that I don’t go bending the wrong levers out of place, could anyone give me the description on where this “copper locking lever” is located? Is it the little tab/catch just below the top film rail which can be seen when the film back is removed? Do I need to remove/dismantle the film plane casting to access the lever?
A picture would definitely help.
Pherdinand
the snow must go on
You can see the bottom of the lever indeed if you peek under the film casting without removing it.
On the very first image here you see the bottom of the lever between the shutter blinds and the film guiding rails.
You also should see if it locks the bottom curtain or not, when you change the sh speed to faster ones. Now, if you can bend it right or not, that's a matter of how inventive you get when looking for a tool
On the very first image here you see the bottom of the lever between the shutter blinds and the film guiding rails.
You also should see if it locks the bottom curtain or not, when you change the sh speed to faster ones. Now, if you can bend it right or not, that's a matter of how inventive you get when looking for a tool
windraider
Established
Thanks Pherdinand, would be attempting the operation soon and will let you know the result.
pangkievrange
Established
Bend it slightly inward after firing the shutter at B and holding the release button (lock it). A very easy fix.
Pangkievrange
Pangkievrange
kiev4a
Well-known
doubs43 said:
I agree with Walker. Instead of debating it, just always cock the shutter on all cameras before setting the shutter speed. Then it becomes a habit and you don't have to worry about it. On most standard transmission cars these days you have to push the clutch all the way in before the engine will start. It's easier to just push in the clutch than to figure some way to disable to lockout.
Pherdinand
the snow must go on
kiev4a said:
The only problem with this is, i'd say, that little word "all" in fvromt of "cameras". There are some cameras that are not supposed to have the sh speed changed once the shutter is cocked, since they can be damaged.
P
pshinkaw
Guest
The Compur shutters on my Welta Weltur and Agfa Karat 36's can only be set on 1/400 1/500 respectively if it they are NOT cocked. Trying to reset a cocked shutter results in a grinding noise and usually a jammed shutter if the rim can be moved that far at all.
-Paul
-Paul
windraider
Established
I just realised that on one of my Kiev 4, the catch on the shutter curtain had come loose and dropped off. Hence the lever has got nothing to hook on to prevent the shutter curtain from moving when changing speeds.
Anybody have any experience in repairing this before?
What can be used as a replacement part?
Additionally can a replacement part be soldered on? The original part looks like it was riveted on.
Anybody have any experience in repairing this before?
What can be used as a replacement part?
Additionally can a replacement part be soldered on? The original part looks like it was riveted on.
Pherdinand
the snow must go on
windraider, i'd expect that a kiev with working shutter might be easier to get than an good replacement part
Or at least a kiev which is broken but has that part (the top of the lower shutter curtain i think is removable).
Or at least a kiev which is broken but has that part (the top of the lower shutter curtain i think is removable).
windraider
Established
Well no joy. I took apart the film casting and unscrewed the yoke from the lower shutter curtain. Unfortunatedly the catch that needs replacement was riveted to the lower shutter curtain. Seems like I would need to replace the whole shutter assembly to solve this problem. Anybody can confirm this?
I am going to try to fabricate the catch myself and solder it to the curtain. Any advice and recommendation in this endeavour would be much appreciated.
I am going to try to fabricate the catch myself and solder it to the curtain. Any advice and recommendation in this endeavour would be much appreciated.
Pherdinand
the snow must go on
I can't help with that. But i have a question myself:
Why is the catch a double-catch? Should the lever fall in between the two hooks on the catch, or under the bottom hook? For me it's the latter case, but i have the feeling that the fastest speed is too fast (almost non-opening) due to this.
Why is the catch a double-catch? Should the lever fall in between the two hooks on the catch, or under the bottom hook? For me it's the latter case, but i have the feeling that the fastest speed is too fast (almost non-opening) due to this.
windraider
Established
Finally some results!
The saga:
Bought a strip of brass and a soldering iron.
Snipped & filed it to dimensions as close to the original catch as possible.
Tried soldering the fabricated part to the shutter, but the solder bump was a little too thick (first time soldering hah) and the catch came off after tripping the shutter a few times. Was about to solder it back on again, when I realised that the remenants of the solder bump on the shutter was good enough for the lever to latch on, so I left it as it is. If the bump wears off I'll try soldering the catch again or deposit more solder.
But in the meantime shutter curtains seems to be behaving normally now, ie staying in place when I change speeds. Will be trying out a roll of film soon.
Thanks all for all the help and listening.
The saga:
Bought a strip of brass and a soldering iron.
Snipped & filed it to dimensions as close to the original catch as possible.
Tried soldering the fabricated part to the shutter, but the solder bump was a little too thick (first time soldering hah) and the catch came off after tripping the shutter a few times. Was about to solder it back on again, when I realised that the remenants of the solder bump on the shutter was good enough for the lever to latch on, so I left it as it is. If the bump wears off I'll try soldering the catch again or deposit more solder.
But in the meantime shutter curtains seems to be behaving normally now, ie staying in place when I change speeds. Will be trying out a roll of film soon.
Thanks all for all the help and listening.