Choice: Kiev IIa or Kiev 4a. Which one?

[Pfreddee]

My Kiev 4AM shutter is starting to go and I think it will be more economical to buy another camera than ship it off to Ukraine for repair. I've narrowed my choices to the Kiev IIa and a Kiev 4A. Which one would you all recommend, and why?

Thank you to all who reply.

With best regards,

Pfreddee(Stephen)

 

[wolves3012]

Received wisdom on FSUs says older models were better made, which would point to the IIa being a better choice. I don't base that on personal experience of Kievs, however, only having two of them. It's noticeably true of FEDs and to a lesser degee, Zorkis. The caveat, of course is that a newer camera well cared for is, probably, still better than an old one that was neglected. So condition is likely more a factor and the difference in functionality between those two Kievs is nominal-to-nothing. I know that probably doesn't help you much!

 

[Highway 61]

A Kiev IIa is a better choice because the general build quality hadn't dropped too much yet.

In case you haven't read this :

http://www3.telus.net/public/rpnchbck/zconrfKiev.htm

 

[David Hughes]

Hi,

If you had the last Kiev 4a off of the line then it would still be 36 years old and that says a lot for the build quality. And one of the oldest 4a's would be in its 60's.

With a repair you'd know everything is OK and you ought to get another 36 years out of it or more.

And a new one to you could be a dud 'un.

I often wonder if the older ones are seen as better because they've been through an overhaul and so on. In other words in their second life...

Regards, David

 

[Valkir1987]

I would recommend a 4a model from the early '60. I've done a lot of Kiev's. the II and III from the fifties are indeed well made, but need more attention considering the fact that they still used outdated Zeiss Lubricants and sometimes Zeiss ribbons (which can not be replaced by Kiev ribbons).

The real quality drop starts with the mid '70 and '80 models.

 

[Ko.Fe.]

Choice for what? To brag about on Forums? The older the better.
To take pictures with - one which was serviced by knowledgeable person.

 

[ForestCap]

I'd suggest a good, clean looking 4a. Buy it then pray. II can be too expensive.

My personal experience is some FSU RFs on eBays ARE CLA'd even though the sellers don't list them as. (Now I don't know if it's a good thing or a bad thing.) This happened to two of the Zorki-6s, one Zork-4 and one Kiev-4a I bought. They were all under $50 each. However all the FED 2 and 3 I've bought turned out to be quite bad and dirty even though some were listed as CLA'd.

Back to Kiev:
I have only one Kiev, a 4a from 1969. It was listed as "working" (no more other descriptive words) from a seller with 93% positive feedback. I tried my luck and it turned out to be a fine, working camera. The camera is much cleaner inside than the bunch of FEDs and Zorkis I bought before. The ribbons also looked very good, I guess they have been replaced at least once after factory. Sometimes I wonder if anyone has lived and used a Kiev long enough to have one pair of properly installed (newly then) ribbons destroyed by normal everyday shooting?

I'm buying another Kiev-4a from 1964 as a backup.

 

[bobby_novatron]

I have a 1957 Kiev IIa, a 1960's Kiev 4a, and a 1981 Kiev 4a. The Kiev IIa is the best of the three, it works 100% and feels very well-made. But maybe I was lucky.

If you're concerned about reliability I would purchase the camera from a decent vendor, so you would have recourse if things didn't work out. As stated earlier, these cameras are quite old so age is a huge potential problem. Maybe check out fedka.com, see what he's got.

 

[David Hughes]

Hi,

Exactly, " ...maybe I was lucky" sums it up neatly.

Some people buy cameras and look after them but can be unlucky and drop them. Others don't and when they fail buy another. Others think they can repair them and are lucky, or unlucky or clumsy. And others think digital is wonderful and so haven't touched their camera for 10 or 15years and it's now got problems due to neglect, storage, heat and so on

So the previous owners of the cameras have a lot to do with the condition of the camera after a few years but we are not talking about a few years but decades.

So chose it for its looks, which can't be changed easily, but buy it with your eyes open and be prepared to have a little or a lot of work done on it. And if it fails get it repaired, which will keep the repairmen happy and the supply of parts and so on fluid.

Luckily Oleg* doesn't charge the earth and a lot of us have been delighted with his workmanship.

Regards, David

* At http://www.okvintagecamera.com/repair.html and charging US $55 for Kiev repairs...

 

[Hannes]

I have Kiev in various ages, from 1955 to 1984. The best working ones are from 1984. None of them was CLAd. Check conditions and get the better one.
Buying from the net without being able to test is a lottery. I got one in nice working condition. But after a short time the shutter broke.

 

[stevebrot]

I currently own a 4A (1961) and also used to own a IIa (1957). I would still have the IIa except for an issue with rangefinder calibration that the vendor was not able to have repaired, so back it went for refund. 🙁 Before I sent it back, I was able to do a fairly thorough comparison of the two cameras. Over all, my impressions were that build quality on both is credible with the edge going to the IIa. It is finished out nicely Where the IIa really shone is with the viewfinder/rangefinder optics, meaning that they are as good as a Contax. The finder on my 4A is OK, just not as nice.

In regards to age, I also had a late run 4AM for a short period of time. It was poorly made and was returned for credit against the 4A that I currently shoot with. The 4AM was a very shoddy piece of work. I would hesitate on a Kiev 4 made later than the early 1970s.

Here are some side-by-side photos. You can click through to view comments and description. The 4A is on the left except for the third photo where it is below.














Steve

 

[dee]

Early Kievs are better made , but to be certain , ship it to Oleg , master engineer , at OK Vintage -$55 plus $22 shipping.
I guess , with shipping out , it would total under $100.
This way , you can reassured of a exquisitely working Kiev .
it sure takes the guess work out of it !
I was extremely fortunate for an opportunity to have Contax/Kiev hybrids rebuilt by ex-Arsenal techs.
dee

 

[fanshaw]

Early Kievs are better made , but to be certain , ship it to Oleg , master engineer , at OK Vintage -$55 plus $22 shipping.
I guess , with shipping out , it would total under $100.
This way , you can reassured of a exquisitely working Kiev .
it sure takes the guess work out of it !
I was extremely fortunate for an opportunity to have Contax/Kiev hybrids rebuilt by ex-Arsenal techs.
dee

Well the 'Master Engineer' was unable to make my Kiev 4AM work properly after 3 attempts, after which I gave up. Maybe he has improved his skillis since then.

 

[dee]

interesting , Ibought my 1st pair of Kievs from Oleg and they paved the way for a Kiev obsession dee

 

[Valkir1987]

Well the 'Master Engineer' was unable to make my Kiev 4AM work properly after 3 attempts, after which I gave up. Maybe he has improved his skillis since then.

Well. I can tell you from my experience that it takes years to master a Kiev and find out how to service it properly. And yes, I am an engineer too.

But once mastered, you keep asking yourself why you didn't find out all of these facts before. And many of them are paradoxal.

Remember the Contax had to avoid all the Leica patents, which resulted in a camera which worked in a completely different way. Even in a way most camera's work. A Zorki can run on gravy, the Kiev can not.

For example:

- Ribbons must almost be replaced. Even when they look good, they wear out and bring in more friction. Using the right ribbons for a Kiev (not old Arsenal stock) brings a Kiev to life. It often solves the shutter capping problem too.

- Oil based lubricants (even the finest watch oil) is unsuitable for a Kiev. Their lubcrication is wax based. Oiling them will only slow them down. Some parts even run dry and do not need any kind of lubrication.

- It has many gears which can be replaced in only one correct position. One displacement will make speeds work incorrect.

- The film friction clutch works in the oposite direction. Cleaning, adjusting and relubrication is evident for proper spacing.

 

[fanshaw]

I have no doubt that working on a Kiev is not easy and takes considerable skill. However it is not difficult to see when it is not working properly. I was able to do this very easily