Choosing between Pixii vs used M10

[Rayt]

Having a camera that feels comfortable in your hands is an important factor. This is why a lot of people chose M bodies for example over an R9 or whatever. Hasselblad 500CM felt wrong to me as a street shooter and that brick belongs in a studio but a Rolleiflex feels better. It’s just personal choice.

 

[boojum]

They feel good.

Well played. ;o)

 

[Godfrey]

I tried a Pixii in the Spring of 2022. It was an interesting camera that made good photos, but I found too many issues with haptics, battery life, and some simple functionality to keep it. However, it cemented in my head that a monochrome camera would be an ideal fit to my uses. I returned the Pixii at the end of the evaluation period for a full refund, and dug deep: bought a new M10 Monochrom. The M10-M has been absolutely perfect for my uses ... haptics, features, image quality, everything are just what I've been looking for. It inspires me to use it. It inspired me enough that I realized an M10-R would be a perfect complement for color work, so I sold the Leica CL I had and found a good second-hand M10-R body at a fair price about half a year later.

These two cameras together are so complete a solution for my photography that I hardly really need or use anything else at this point, other than my favorite Polaroid cameras for the instant film magic.

G

 

[Freakscene]

I also tried the Pixii. I had problems with rolling shutter artefacts - I photograph musicians under lights a lot. I got a lot of banding.

I agree with Godfrey about the M10 series - with the exceptions that for my use where things change quickly the metering (still) causes me to lose shots occasionally, and because I sometimes have to shoot a lot, short battery life has been a problem. I have 5 batteries now ($$$). The M11 series has better battery life and metering, but introduces the problem that shutter lag when using the rangefinder is the same as when using live view - because the camera meters off the sensor the shutter needs to be open to meter, but then closes and opens again to take the shot. I think that the M11 slowness is about equally frustrating as the M10 metering.

Long term I’d love Leica to make a camera with M mount, an EVF and the responsiveness of the best mirrorless cameras. That would be perfect for me. But the M10 and 11 series are much more feasible as cameras for serious work than Leica’s earlier digital Ms.

Marty

 

[Coldkennels]

From reading the OP's comments, I think he and I are in similar places, and ultimately, I don't think the Pixii would cut it for him.

The X-Pro 2 is my favourite non-Leica digital camera in many ways, but the Pixii solves one issue I have with it (the OVF manual focusing setup - RF is far superior to the little pop-up EVF in the corner), while ignoring one other issue (the "crop factor" when using converted LTM and Contax lenses) and introducing a new one (the banding and lack of tactile feedback of an electronic shutter, both of which I hate when the X-Pro is in electronic shutter mode for one reason or another).

When a Pixii is €2699 (~£2350 at current conversion) and a used M240 is about the same price, I'd be taking the M240 if I was in the market. Hell, looking at MPB, a used M8 is £1300 at the mo... despite the age of the M8 and all the various problems with it, at least it "solves" the electronic shutter issues!

 

[wlewisiii]

From reading the OP's comments, I think he and I are in similar places, and ultimately, I don't think the Pixii would cut it for him.

The X-Pro 2 is my favourite non-Leica digital camera in many ways, but the Pixii solves one issue I have with it (the OVF manual focusing setup - RF is far superior to the little pop-up EVF in the corner), while ignoring one other issue (the "crop factor" when using converted LTM and Contax lenses) and introducing a new one (the banding and lack of tactile feedback of an electronic shutter, both of which I hate when the X-Pro is in electronic shutter mode for one reason or another).

When a Pixii is €2699 (~£2350 at current conversion) and a used M240 is about the same price, I'd be taking the M240 if I was in the market. Hell, looking at MPB, a used M8 is £1300 at the mo... despite the age of the M8 and all the various problems with it, at least it "solves" the electronic shutter issues!

Reading through this thread makes me even more happy with my M 240 😉 Cost me my inheritance from an uncle and some extra but worth it!

 

[nightlight]

If that helps I have exchanged couple of emails with David (I assume their CEO 🤯) who has been very respectful and honest about the fact that if I'm looking for mechanical shutter actuation I'd be disappointed "At least in the foreseeable future" (I was trying to inquire if such an upgrade could be in the pipeline).

I'm not sure I understand what do you mean by dimension ? Do you mean sensor size or a camera body size ? If the sensor size I did try to find out if FF sensor upgrade viable in the future. On that he politely said they can't share future plans but did correctly pointed out that they have provided upgrade path for the in the last 3 years.

Thanks for sharing that piece of info. The crop factor, body size, delivery lead times, origin; none of those are an issue for me; I just would like to try the camera and get a feel for the shutter. I used the word 'dimension' figuratively, as in, the sensation / how pressing the shutter would feel like.

The slight niggle I do have is with the connectedness of the thing (bluetooth, wifi etc) but it's a trait of our times I suppose.

I've decided to wait until it's available in a shop, or on the second hand market, or if I meet someone who uses one, to try one first-hand.

To the other posters who mentioned M240s, that's a fab alternative. Just for me, experience of digital Leicas (M8.2 & M9) was an expensive one on repairs - I then moved on to Xpro2s, those were nice as well. Like someone else said on this thread, it's all about personal prefs. Best of luck to the OP on his/her search!

 

[Godfrey]

I also tried the Pixii. I had problems with rolling shutter artefacts - I photograph musicians under lights a lot. I got a lot of banding.

I agree with Godfrey about the M10 series - with the exceptions that for my use where things change quickly the metering (still) causes me to lose shots occasionally, and because I sometimes have to shoot a lot, short battery life has been a problem. I have 5 batteries now ($$$). The M11 series has better battery life and metering, but introduces the problem that shutter lag when using the rangefinder is the same as when using live view - because the camera meters off the sensor the shutter needs to be open to meter, but then closes and opens again to take the shot. I think that the M11 slowness is about equally frustrating as the M10 metering.

Long term I’d love Leica to make a camera with M mount, an EVF and the responsiveness of the best mirrorless cameras. That would be perfect for me. But the M10 and 11 series are much more feasible as cameras for serious work than Leica’s earlier digital Ms.

Marty

A bit of a digression, Marty. I'm curious about your experience with the metering and short battery life with the M10. At least with my M10-M and M10-R, the metering has been right on the money nearly every exposure (modulo the usual trickiness of having to override the automatic setting with Exposure Compensation or go to manual metering for pathological lighting situations), and I'm getting more than 600 exposures on a battery charge with both of them. What specifically about the metering is not meeting your expectations? and how many exposures are you getting on a battery charge? Do you use Live View and/or the EVF a lot? I'm curious.

Feel free to respond in a private message if you don't want to litter this thread with a diversion. 🙂

G

 

[wlewisiii]

A bit of a digression, Marty. I'm curious about your experience with the metering and short battery life with the M10. At least with my M10-M and M10-R, the metering has been right on the money nearly every exposure (modulo the usual trickiness of having to override the automatic setting with Exposure Compensation or go to manual metering for pathological lighting situations), and I'm getting more than 600 exposures on a battery charge with both of them. What specifically about the metering is not meeting your expectations? and how many exposures are you getting on a battery charge? Do you use Live View and/or the EVF a lot? I'm curious.

Feel free to respond in a private message if you don't want to litter this thread with a diversion. 🙂

G

I'd like to hear it as well. My experience with the M 240 is so utterly unlike that as well that it seems hard to imagine. Perhaps a separate thread?

 

[boojum]

As most of us do not do predominantly night shots at faster than 1/60 the problem is not a big deal. It isn't for me. And I believe this is an LED light problem only. So the shutter problem exists but is a problem rarely in common usage.

The biggest complaint is that it is not a Leica. I have some Leicas. I like them. I like the Pixii, too. I like that, too. The folks who do not like the Pixii are in two camps: those who have owned one and those who have not. Pixii has a generous 30 day return policy. This return policy does not help those who have not owned a Pixii.

 

[Freakscene]

I'd like to hear it as well. My experience with the M 240 is so utterly unlike that as well that it seems hard to imagine. Perhaps a separate thread?

Firstly, the M240 battery is much larger (1800mah vs 1100mah for the M10) and the live view is almost useless for me, so none of my problems with the M10 applied to that series of camera.

A bit of a digression, Marty. I'm curious about your experience with the metering and short battery life with the M10. At least with my M10-M and M10-R, the metering has been right on the money nearly every exposure (modulo the usual trickiness of having to override the automatic setting with Exposure Compensation or go to manual metering for pathological lighting situations), and I'm getting more than 600 exposures on a battery charge with both of them. What specifically about the metering is not meeting your expectations? and how many exposures are you getting on a battery charge? Do you use Live View and/or the EVF a lot? I'm curious.

The metering seems more sensitive to off axis or backlighting than I expect, and the camera is programmed to allow more of the scene to blow out than any other camera that I use. I should add that the MM and typ 246 metering behaved essentially the same, so it's not my individual camera or the M10 alone.

This is 2 2/3 stops under compared to the meter reading


2 1/3 stops under to stop the pajama top blowing out:


In the same circumstances, basically every other camera I use from Nikon, Fuji or Pentax needed minimal or no compensation. Neither did the M11 in higlight weighted metering mode.

In terms of battery life I get about 250-450 shots a charge. It is much more towards the worse end when the weather is over 35C, which it is for half the year here, or thereabouts. I do use the EVF or live view quite a bit, whenever I shoot fast lenses relatively wide open. The RF is not accurate enough to focus fast lenses close up, and it doesn’t help that when Leica services my lenses without the camera they standard they use is sufficiently off that I have consistent problems. A number of us in my local Leica group have noted this and @Dante_Stella noticed it too. I don’t like the way the tonality changes away from the plane of focus. Even when I sent my lenses in with my camera only about 3 of 5 came back focusing really accurately with the rangefinder.

In Rajasthan one day I photographed basically all day. 14h or so. Thus is not that unusual for me, historically. At the end of it I had about 30% left on my last battery. The first one was nearly recharged from a power bank, and would have been ok to go if I hadn’t downed tools for the day, but again, the M11 was fine on the second battery with the equivalent amount of shooting. At one point the M10M got too hot to touch and the screen stopped working until I cooled it down.

How you work might vary, but I keep pretty detailed notes and this has proven itself over about 40,000 frames with the M10M since March 2020.

Marty

 

[boojum]

It is surprising that the M10 has metering problems as you describe. First, one would not expect that from Leica and second, I have not known of it except from your reporting. All the others with M10's seem to warble happily. Perhaps it is because they are shooting under different circumstances. But still, . . .

I like my M240, it works, always. The M10 thing perplexes me. I assume you are current with firmware. Very strange. It was not on my shopping list anyway. ;o)

 

[Freakscene]

It is surprising that the M10 has metering problems as you describe. First, one would not expect that from Leica and second, I have not known of it except from your reporting. All the others with M10's seem to warble happily. Perhaps it is because they are shooting under different circumstances. But still, . . .

I like my M240, it works, always. The M10 thing perplexes me. I assume you are current with firmware. Very strange. It was not on my shopping list anyway. ;o)

In the lighting and circumstances I shoot in, the meters in the MM and typ 246 (I had both) behaved almost identically. Maybe it's the heat, maybe it's the light, but they are great cameras with ok at best meters as far as I'm concerned. It wouldn't surprise me if there is something in the frequency of the stage lighting that Leica's meters and/or algorithms don't like, but it's not unique to me.

Type 246. 2 2/3 under meter reading:

 

[Coldkennels]

As most of us do not do predominantly night shots at faster than 1/60 the problem is not a big deal. It isn't for me. And I believe this is an LED light problem only. So the shutter problem exists but is a problem rarely in common usage.

I recently shot some photos for a magazine at a (real life) forum/discussion event. Swapped my X-Pro 2 to electronic shutter to keep it quiet... while totally forgetting about the banding issue.

I don't know if the room was LED or old-style halogen lights, but yep: had to throw out a lot of shots that I took before I spotted the issue (and promptly kicked myself for forgetting it).

If you're just walking around in daylight, it's not a problem. In other contexts: totally unusable.

Then there's the issue of how weirdly electronic rolling shutter captures motion; I shoot a lot of skateboarding photos. Electronic shutter is completely useless for me in that sphere, too.

At best, the Pixii would be relegated to a "pottering around for fun" camera in my hands - and I never use digital cameras for fun. Doesn't interest me in the slightest.

 

[boojum]

I recently shot some photos for a magazine at a (real life) forum/discussion event. Swapped my X-Pro 2 to electronic shutter to keep it quiet... while totally forgetting about the banding issue.

I don't know if the room was LED or old-style halogen lights, but yep: had to throw out a lot of shots that I took before I spotted the issue (and promptly kicked myself for forgetting it).

If you're just walking around in daylight, it's not a problem. In other contexts: totally unusable.

Then there's the issue of how weirdly electronic rolling shutter captures motion; I shoot a lot of skateboarding photos. Electronic shutter is completely useless for me in that sphere, too.

At best, the Pixii would be relegated to a "pottering around for fun" camera in my hands - and I never use digital cameras for fun. Doesn't interest me in the slightest.

Really? I never got that impression. ;o)

I think for the vast majority of folks it is a fine camera as the vast majority are out shooting in daylight. At night under incandescent, mercury and sodium vapor they work fine, too. At 1/60 and less the shutter works fine with LED. At higher shutter speeds in daylight the rolling shutter is much less a problem and fades way to no problem at all. I have never had a daylight shutter problem with the Pixii. FWIW I have had the same rolling shutter problems on an X2D with non-HB lenses adapted to the camera. Like Leica mount lenses. And while slapping an in-shutter lens on the HB solves the problem for the HB no such solution exists for the Pixii.

This is not mathematics so there can be more than one solution to a problem. Barth has his, other folks have theirs. What works for you may not work for someone else and vice versa.

 

[Godfrey]

Firstly, the M240 battery is much larger (1800mah vs 1100mah for the M10) and the live view is almost useless for me, so none of my problems with the M10 applied to that series of camera.

The metering seems more sensitive to off axis or backlighting than I expect, and the camera is programmed to allow more of the scene to blow out than any other camera that I use. I should add that the MM and typ 246 metering behaved essentially the same, so it's not my individual camera or the M10 alone.

This is 2 2/3 stops under compared to the meter reading
View attachment 4829660

2 1/3 stops under to stop the pajama top blowing out:
View attachment 4829661

In the same circumstances, basically every other camera I use from Nikon, Fuji or Pentax needed minimal or no compensation. Neither did the M11 in higlight weighted metering mode.

In terms of battery life I get about 250-450 shots a charge. It is much more towards the worse end when the weather is over 35C, which it is for half the year here, or thereabouts. I do use the EVF or live view quite a bit, whenever I shoot fast lenses relatively wide open. The RF is not accurate enough to focus fast lenses close up, and it doesn’t help that when Leica services my lenses without the camera they standard they use is sufficiently off that I have consistent problems. A number of us in my local Leica group have noted this and @Dante_Stella noticed it too. I don’t like the way the tonality changes away from the plane of focus. Even when I sent my lenses in with my camera only about 3 of 5 came back focusing really accurately with the rangefinder.

In Rajasthan one day I photographed basically all day. 14h or so. Thus is not that unusual for me, historically. At the end of it I had about 30% left on my last battery. The first one was nearly recharged from a power bank, and would have been ok to go if I hadn’t downed tools for the day, but again, the M11 was fine on the second battery with the equivalent amount of shooting. At one point the M10M got too hot to touch and the screen stopped working until I cooled it down.

How you work might vary, but I keep pretty detailed notes and this has proven itself over about 40,000 frames with the M10M since March 2020.

Marty

I suspect we have rather different expectations about metering. In neither of the exposures above would I have considered any of the many cameras' I've owned and used automatic metering to behave properly without at least my input with the exposure compensation control, or more usually switching to full manual and doing my exposure baseline from memory and experience. I've made (and sold) many similar photos in such lighting circumstances successfully, with digital Ms as well as Nikon, Olympus, Pentax, and other cameras, and never considered any of their metering systems to be deficient in any way. Some are more limited than others; the M as I use it is simply a roughly center-weighted averaging meter (I never use any of the other metering modes), and I'm very well attuned to what such a metering system requires in terms of user input having used center-weighted metering since the Nikon F Photomic FTn invented it in 1969. I nearly always set any camera I use to that same metering standard, it works for me. 😉

It is interesting to me that you have such issues with the rangefinder focusing. I have never had any of my lenses specifically calibrated for focusing, although I've had most of them CLA'ed over the years. I've only had the need to have two of my M bodies rangefinders collimated and calibrated (my M4-2, purchased in 2012, and my M10-R, purchased earlier this year, both used) because both were off as I received them. Leica USA calibrated the M10-R, the M4-2 was calibrated by a local shop. I get perfect focus with all my lenses, whether wide open or not, with all three of my M bodies. I've never even thought about it.

I do use the EVF with the M10M and M10R, mostly when shooting with my ancient Hektor 135mm or when I'm using Leica R lenses for macro and tabletop work. But rarely in the field. Perhaps that, and the different way that I must tend to shoot compared to your practices, is why I tend to get 600+ exposures per battery charge with the M10s ... I used to get marginally more with the M240 and M262, and far less with the M9. But I account it roughly as I simply never seem to have to think about it. My shooting, both day and night, is much slower paced than what it seems you do ... a typical half-day session of shooting for me generally is 200 exposures or so, and I use the camera for three or more such sessions with the same battery in it. I always have one spare battery in my bag, but only rarely need it.

Different expectations, different experiences, etc. I'm delighted with the M10-M and M10-R .. they work extremely well for me, and I haven't any complaints about them at all. Such it is. 🙂 😉

G

 

[Freakscene]

I suspect we have rather different expectations about metering. In neither of the exposures above would I have considered any of the many cameras' I've owned and used automatic metering to behave properly without at least my input with the exposure compensation control, or more usually switching to full manual and doing my exposure baseline from memory and experience. I've made (and sold) many similar photos in such lighting circumstances successfully, with digital Ms as well as Nikon, Olympus, Pentax, and other cameras, and never considered any of their metering systems to be deficient in any way. Some are more limited than others; the M as I use it is simply a roughly center-weighted averaging meter (I never use any of the other metering modes), and I'm very well attuned to what such a metering system requires in terms of user input having used center-weighted metering since the Nikon F Photomic FTn invented it in 1969. I nearly always set any camera I use to that same metering standard, it works for me. 😉

One thing I maybe didn’t make clear; when I meter those scenes, I set an initial exposure based on the meter reading and the histogram. I have the camera set at higher thresholds for under/overexposure assessment (and have tried it at lower settings) and despite those data telling me that good parts of the scene should be in range, after I shoot, way more is overexposed than I would expect. There is something very curious about the metering at times. I can shoot these scenes much better on film than digital, and did so for decades. Part of the problem, I suspect, is that the metering is ‘centre weighted’ vertically but not horizonally, and the meter sensitivity seems to be higher at the hand end than the eye end.

I lose a few shots, but doubt it has made an economic difference. It’s mostly existential doubt. My frustration I think mainly comes from it being so clear and simple about how to make it better. As I said, the M11s have very good different metering but another problem. None of this would be an issue if I wasn’t wedded to black and white.

Maybe the problem lies mainly with my attitude.

It is interesting to me that you have such issues with the rangefinder focusing. I have never had any of my lenses specifically calibrated for focusing, although I've had most of them CLA'ed over the years. I've only had the need to have two of my M bodies rangefinders collimated and calibrated (my M4-2, purchased in 2012, and my M10-R, purchased earlier this year, both used) because both were off as I received them. Leica USA calibrated the M10-R, the M4-2 was calibrated by a local shop. I get perfect focus with all my lenses, whether wide open or not, with all three of my M bodies. I've never even thought about it.

Mine take about 3 years to get seriously out of whack. I measure how well they are working periodically. This may also be to do with the heat, or the number of times the cam gets pressed against the roller. At the moment all my lenses are way out of calibration. I may get another M10M after Christmas and send everything in together. I can use a Summarit or rigid Summicron with my spare until everything else comes back.

I do use the EVF with the M10M and M10R, mostly when shooting with my ancient Hektor 135mm or when I'm using Leica R lenses for macro and tabletop work. But rarely in the field. Perhaps that, and the different way that I must tend to shoot compared to your practices, is why I tend to get 600+ exposures per battery charge with the M10s ... I used to get marginally more with the M240 and M262, and far less with the M9. But I account it roughly as I simply never seem to have to think about it. My shooting, both day and night, is much slower paced than what it seems you do ... a typical half-day session of shooting for me generally is 200 exposures or so, and I use the camera for three or more such sessions with the same battery in it. I always have one spare battery in my bag, but only rarely need it.

I think temperature definitely makes a difference. In the desert it can by over 35C in the day and under 10C at night. It’s not kind on lithium batteries.

Different expectations, different experiences, etc. I'm delighted with the M10-M and M10-R .. they work extremely well for me, and I haven't any complaints about them at all. Such it is. 🙂 😉

I like the cameras too, don’t get me wrong. They are compact, relatively unobtrusive (I get about 3 times more ‘get the camera out of my face’ comments with the Pentax KiMono than the M10) and mostly work well. But a Monochrome Fuji GFX or Nikon Z might make me ditch the Ms, at least for this work.

 

[wlewisiii]

Interesting. Thank you for the replies, I appreciate it.

I didn't know that the battery was that much bigger, it does last a very long time in my experience. I've thought about buying a backup but in the several years I've owned the camera I have _never_ needed one.

It could well be the difference in what we shoot (daytime landscapes predominate for me but I have done my share of low light band photography too with my M 240). The only time I've found need to do serious exposure compensation is the usual winter/snow problem _ALL_ exposure meters have up here in the snow belt. Once I got used to using a center-weighted meter again (matrix metering spoils one 😉 ) I have had far less trouble with the M 240's metering than I have with even my Nikon F4 or D810.

 

[Godfrey]

With respect to the battery's shots per charge, I think you're likely correct: high temps (or low temps!) both tend to reduce battery effective capacity, and with high temps the whole camera is running hotter and less efficient as well.

those temps might also be effecting the RF calibration too. It's a very temperate climate here, cooler more of the time than hotter. My lenses calibration never seems to go out of whack. I have them CLA'ed every five to seven years when I feel the lubricants start to feel a little stiff; I've never seen one go out of RF adjustment.

G

 

[Freakscene]

With respect to the battery's shots per charge, I think you're likely correct: high temps (or low temps!) both tend to reduce battery effective capacity, and with high temps the whole camera is running hotter and less efficient as well.

those temps might also be effecting the RF calibration too. It's a very temperate climate here, cooler more of the time than hotter. My lenses calibration never seems to go out of whack. I have them CLA'ed every five to seven years when I feel the lubricants start to feel a little stiff; I've never seen one go out of RF adjustment.

G

Indeed, it seems likely. Brian Reid (computer scientist) - Wikipedia, saloon keeper of the Leica Users Group, showed me weather data from his house in Palo Alto that showed that the weather there was _exceptionally_ moderate. Not only does the weather not get very hot, but it doesn't vary much.

In Rajasthan my M10M heated up so much one day the camera stopped working. The first sign was that the screen showed the images in negative. A few shots later it stopped working. My Pentax KiMono felt hotter to the touch but kept going. Maybe the weather never gets very hot in Wetzlar either.