Archiver
Veteran
I wonder what the sales of secondhand gear is like by comparison? I, for one, have found a lot of value in gently used secondhand gear in the last year, and I've spent a fraction of what I would have spent buying new gear. This doesn't help the immediate sales of new gear, but there's a trickle down effect with people who wait to get recent generation cameras secondhand. A heavy enthusiast or pro who needs serviceable gear can kit themselves out at half to two thirds the cost of buying new. I certainly did.
Pál_K
Cameras. I has it.
Thanks for the digression. But, just curious, does it rhyme in Syriac? I guess that’s Syriac, but that script is well out of my comfort zone.
Syriac is actually an ancient script of that region; Syrians today use Modern Standard Arabic for formal speaking and writing.
Alas, it doesn’t rhyme - I’ll transcribe below:
al-kilaab-i-tanbahh wa-l-qaafalah tasiir
However, since it does rhyme in Turkish - that’s a good argument in favor of its origin.
Good observation! The Nikon F lasted from 1959-1972, the F2 from 1972-1980, and the F3 from 1980 until production stopped in 2001 (after the F4 and F5 had been introduced). We certainly didn’t expect a new pro camera every five years or so, although Nikon and others were happily introducing amateur level cameras often (*). The difference, I think is that they relied on increased revenue not from new model introductions so much, but rather enticing more of the population to transition from snapshooter cameras to 35mm SLR’s.
(*) See this cool SLR table of 1950’s-1980’s SLRs here! http://minolta.eazypix.de/slrtable/
maigo
Well-known
You mean all the Made in China junk sold on Amazon and Aliexpress by the alphabet soup gibberish name companies?
That crap is sold and shipped cheap that no one is committed to use it. It has next to no value and therefore purchasers are not committed to do the hard part to learn the technology and techniques.
All you need for Tiktok and YouTube is a front facing camera on your smartphone and a sunlit window to lean your phone against. Millions of videos prove this out.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
jarski
Veteran
Am not viewing this question of divisions, but rather synergies that Sony is benefiting from by doing both cameras, phones and imaging sensors for both. Think of autofocus tech available for phones, after they been improving it for years in cameras. Or lens design. Or image processing. Sonys latest Xperia phones are excellent imaging and videography devices thanks to camera tech they been incorporating in them.
HHPhoto
Well-known
I agree.
Because the downward trend is intact, because all the reasons for the decline are there and will stay for some further years. Lots of the reasons have already been mentioned here.
I want to add some more:
1. All manufacturers have said that they will focus mostly on the the higher-priced, higher margin models in the future: In the range from 2,000 to 10,000 bucks. But that is too pricey for the average Joe enthusiast, who has bought in the 600 - 1,500 bucks price range. Therefore lots of enthusiast photographers will stop buying new and satisfy their needs on the used market instead.
2. Canon is making a big mistake: They said that they will focus on mirrorless, and they haven't given a perspective to their huge base of DSLR users. They want to force them to switch to mirrorless. But most customers will be "pi***d off" if you try to force them to something they don't want. For lots of photographers a DSLR is the best tool, and they want to continue using it. Lots of Canon DSLR users won't switch to mirrorless, and Canon is loosing them to the used market, or to Nikon and Pentax.
3. Lots of (especially young) photographers are investing in film gear. The film market is increasing. Making new film cameras will be the solution for clever camera manufacturers in 3-4 years.
Cheers, Jan
Out to Lunch
Ventor
Which, of course, explains why Canon remains hugely profitable while Nikon is chalking up huge losses. Cheers, OtL
benlees
Well-known
I don't have numbers, but I think Canon is starting to do quite well in mirrorless- and making it as painless as possible for dslr owners. They were practically giving away RP's bundled with the EF adapter. The R5 and R6 are well reviewed. They do need some RF lenses to come ASAP.
HHPhoto
Well-known
Canon's mistake of ignoring a huge amount of their customers will cost them customers in the long term.
It has nothing to do with their current, short term financials. Which are also benefitting by the fact that Canon has introduced 3 new DSLRs in the last 18 months.
If they would continue serving this market in the long term, they of course would keep these loyal DSLR customers.
But they have said that they will not develop new DSLRs, therefore they will lose a significant amount of customers in the long run.
From 2012 to 2020 80 million DSLR were sold.
But only 32 million mirrorless cameras.
So the DSLR user base out there is much much bigger.
And it is a mistake to ignore that fact.
Millions of these DSLR users will not switch to mirrorless.
As a company you can work for your customers, or against them. With the first attitude you will have long term success.
Cheers, Jan
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JeffS7444
Well-known
I expect Canon to continue selling new EF-mount cameras and lenses for awhile, but like Sony with their A-mount system, would not expect any new product developments unless they perceive a demand for them. The size of the user base doesn't matter if no one is buying new products!
HHPhoto
Well-known
And they will buy new products if the manufacturer is making attractive offers.
With the Canon EOS 1 DX III they have demonstrated that there is a lot of progress that can still be made in DSLR technology.
The same is valid for Nikon with the D850, D500, and lately with the D780 and D6.
Pentax' new K3-III which will be officially introduced this month is also looking extremely interesting with huge improvements (lots of details have already been leaked).
In a strongly declining market like the digital camera market you have to keep as much users happy as possible.
To say "****" to a huge number of customers by ignoring their preferences would be counterproductive.
Cheers, Jan
JeffS7444
Well-known
Do you plan to purchase any of those cameras brand-new within the next 6 months? I don't.
Apple has shown us repeatedly that sometimes that's exactly what a company needs to do.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H8eP99neOVs
HHPhoto
Well-known
I have an eye on one of these cameras, yes. Whether I will buy it in short or mid term, I haven't made a decision yet.
In a completely different market.
And other companies have been successful with completely different strategies.
The facts are there: The mirrorless market is declining since 2012 (see CIPA data and add the Samsung numbers to the years from 2012 to 2017). That decline wouldn't be the case if a huge amount of DSLR users would switch to mirrorless. So the data clearly shows that only a part of the DSLRs users are switching to mirrorless. But a huge amount of users is continuing using the DSLR.
Cheers, Jan
JeffS7444
Well-known
Let me simplify the question: What/when was your last new SLR purchased through official German sources? My last (and first) new SLR purchased from a official USA dealer was a Sony SLT-A35, purchased 19 Nov 2011: Yes, it's been nearly a decade since I've purchased a new SLR!
HHPhoto
Well-known
2015. And almost another one last year. Had bad luck concerning an offer, I came a bit too late.
In 2019 still 600,000 more DSLRs were sold than mirrorless cameras. Look at the CIPA data.
Cheers, Jan
JeffS7444
Well-known
Why refer to older data? 2020's data appears to show more mirrorless units shipped worldwide, at much higher average value per unit versus SLR:
https://petapixel.com/2021/02/01/2020-cipa-figures-confirm-the-expected-it-was-a-rough-year/
Personally, if I were determined to stick with SLRs, I might choose a Pentax, in hopes that they can survive as a niche producer just as Leica has with rangefinder cameras.
HHPhoto
Well-known
Because it is very relevant.The user base of DSLR users is much much higher than the mirrorless user base.
From 2012 to 2020 80 million DSLR were sold.
But only 32 million mirrorless cameras.
So the DSLR user base out there is much much bigger.
And it is a mistake to ignore that fact.
Millions of these DSLR users will not switch to mirrorless.
Mirrorless sales are declining since 2012. Because the majority of DSLR users is not switching to mirrorless.
Yes, Pentax will certainly be an option.Their new K3-III looks very impressing. In three weeks at CP+ we will have all the details about this gem.
But Nikon has also officially said, quote "we will give our customers the best of both worlds, DSLR and DSLM". This strategy of offering both is the perfect strategy for Nikon. This year a D850 successor is said to come, and maybe (hopefully) a D500 successor as well. And two new F-mount lenses.
Concerning Leica:
They are curently the most successful company in the market, and not suffering from the general market decline. And one reason for their success is that they offer a huge variety to their customers, fulfilling the customers wishes:
- instant film cameras
- rangefinder film cameras
- rangefinder digital cameras
- SLR cameras (S2, S3)
- mirrorless cameras
- APS-C format
- 35mm format
- 30x45mm format
- fixed lens cameras
- ILC cameras.
No other manufacturer is offering such a huge variety of different camera types.
Cheers, Jan
Out to Lunch
Ventor
To an infinitely small and shrinking market segment. Cheers, OtL
HHPhoto
Well-known
Wrong.
The film market segment is significantly increasing. As Leica has officially explained several times, their Leica Sofort instant film camera has increasing demand and is their best selling camera (highest sales volume by units). It is very popular with young customers.
And the demand for their film rangefinder cameras is increasing so strongly that the demand is meanwhile surpassing their production capacity.
And concerning their digital cameras: In contrast to the general market they have quite stable sales, because of their variety strategy.
Cheers, Jan
Range-rover
Veteran
I don't know about new camera's but the used digital SLR market
is doing good I go on ebay and who's buying all the old stuff. Besides
I just purchased a old Sony A700, I want to get into those old Minolta
lenses.
is doing good I go on ebay and who's buying all the old stuff. Besides
I just purchased a old Sony A700, I want to get into those old Minolta
lenses.
JeffS7444
Well-known
I think it is a mistake to ignore 2020 data.
Total ¥ value of cameras shipped in 2020 as % of ILC sales:
DSLR=~39%
Mirrorless=~60%
There may be more DSLR owners in the world, but they aren't buying a lot of new DSLRs anymore.