Clearly Doomed

>Shame, but I have no confidence left in Leica, but will gladly be proven wrong.

I, too, have fallen completely out of love with Leica. I totally bought into the mystic and romance of Leica right up to the moment that I pressed the shutter release on the first M8 I held to my eye.

Since then I find myself drifting further and further away and caring less and less about the company's fortunes and products. I have let me LHSA membership lapse.

I still treasure my M7 and my souped up M3. I own half a dozen lenses for them -- but only one made my Leica.

I am on a photography workshop trip and brought my Xpan and RF645. The Leica gear? At home on the shelf.

Leica has lost me. And from what I read, they have lost countless other would-be loyal customers.

And I, for one, don't see a likely roadmap to win many of us back.
 
Gid, I know you must be disappointed but you are in plentiful company with the rest of us (just little ole me knows a dozen others with the same mindset) who are sitting tight. The M8 fiasco has to come to a head in the next few months. If Leica wants to see more than maybe a third of their anticipated sales numbers from the camera, they will redo the sensor IR filter so the lenses don't need them and the software--in or out of the camera--needed to correct the cyan corners the filters cause. If they are happy with the sales numbers as they stand, they will still have to solve all the electronic bugs because not many owners (maybe five or six, judging from the forums) will still be happy with their M8 if it won't turn on :D
The first thing I'm waiting for is to see Firmware 1.10. That will help to dispel concern that the Jenoptik split has left the M8 in the lurch like the Imacon split did to the DMR. Then I'm waiting to see if cameras fitted with 1.10 are still plagued with the crashes and lockups and weird happenings. Leica has had enough time to incorporate those fixes into 1.10 if indeed they are firmware-related. If not there may be another recall. By fall I would expect the whole thing to be settled one way or another.

Dave, I honestly think that the roadmap is clear, there's a fork in the road. One way leads down a short path to a happy gathering of a handful of singing, dancing Leica fans who don't realize they are at a wake. The other road is uphill and rocky but at the end there is an on-ramp to the interstate headed toward the future. It's just a matter if whoever's driving Leica has their eyes open or not.
 
Dave / Ben,

I am concerned most about their ability to get this back on track. The DMR back out didn't help persuade me to persevere - one camera with no future is enough (my R-D1). Like you Ben, I'm keen to see if they can get 1.10 out in reasonable time and with reasonable content. I do wish them well - the IQ is amazing and the potential is very good. However, they do need to sort out the shutter noise - silence has been a key element in their film cameras - the M8 (both of my copies) is extremely noisy - much noisier than the R-D1, much noisier than any of my Olympus DSLRs. Anyone who thinks they can trip the M8's shutter during a church service or theater production without getting noticed is kidding themselves.
 
Gid said:
Anyone who thinks they can trip the M8's shutter during a church service or theater production without getting noticed is kidding themselves.
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Agreed. The shutter noise is a very disappointing 'feature' of the M8 and something that obviously isn't going to be fixed in the much anticipated 1.10 firmware revision. I daresay it will be improved upon in a future iteration of the M8 (which is one of the reasons why I have decided to hold off for now from acquiring a second M8. I suspect a marginally improved M8 will be quietly introduced later in the year).
 
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>The shutter noise is a very disappointing 'feature' of the M8

I have been a harsh critic of the M8 since (maybe before) Day One and people here and on other forums have tried to pin me down about my negative reaction.

It is the "shutter noise". That is 95% of why I hate the thing so much.

As a primarily a b&w shooter, I could live most of the IQ issues that have plagued so many others.

If the M8 had the M7's shutter , I'd still own an M8. Probably two.
 
I cannot understand that people that complain about the shutternoise of the M8, which clearly is different from the M3 through M7, albeit objectively not much louder,but considerably longer and different, can profess to prefer any DSLR, with their AF-whine-slam-bang that is about thrice as loud, or the click-whirr of a M* and winder, about twice as obtrusive,and which is the proper comparison to an M8. If you want total silence there is but one choice in decent camera's and that is the Digilux2, which only produces the faintest creak of the aperture closing. And if not, there is the M3 with film, Leica still builds M7's and MP's, so what the **** are you complaining about? If you don't like it don't buy it, but it still is the quietest digital camera with interchangable lenses. And don't say RD1, because that is clearly louder, despite the lack of a rewind motor. So go shoot your theatre production with your Canon 1DsII and see what the people in the seats around you have to say.
 
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AusDLK said:
>Shame, but I have no confidence left in Leica, but will gladly be proven wrong.

I, too, have fallen completely out of love with Leica. I totally bought into the mystic and romance of Leica right up to the moment that I pressed the shutter release on the first M8 I held to my eye.

Since then I find myself drifting further and further away and caring less and less about the company's fortunes and products. I have let me LHSA membership lapse.
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If you buy a camera for mystic and romance you live on a different planet than I do......I buy it to take photographs.
 
jaapv said:
I cannot understand that people that complain about the shutternoise of the M8, which clearly is different from the M3 through M7, albeit objectively not much louder,but considerably longer and different, can profess to prefer any DSLR, with their AF-whine-slam-bang that is about thrice as loud, or the click-whirr of a M* and winder, about twice as obtrusive,and which is the proper comparison to an M8. If you want total silence there is but one choice in decent camera's and that is the Digilux2, which only produces the faintest creak of the aperture closing. And if not, there is the M3 with film, Leica still builds M7's and MP's, so what the **** are you complaining about? If you don't like it don't buy it, but it still is the quietest digital camera with interchangable lenses. And don't say RD1, because that is clearly louder, despite the lack of a rewind motor. So go shoot your theatre production with your Canon 1DsII and see what the people in the seats around you have to say.
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The reason I complained about the shutter noise is because it is NOT quiet. It is louder than the R-D1 - at least the two I have had were. Even my SO said it was loud. I still had an M6 and an MP when I got my first M8 and it was much louder than those. It is in no way the quietest digital camera with interchangeable lenses - the Olympus E1 is significantly quieter - almost as quiet as a film M (check Sean Reids review of the E1 on luminous landscape where he makes such a comparison) and the R-D1 is quieter - either that or there is something seriously wrong with my ears.

However, if I had not had two very poor examples of quality control, I'd still have the camera because of the image quality - IMHO it is that good - good enough to put up with all the other c***.

BTW whats the thing with the "rewind motor" - are there any other digital cameras with such an implementation?
 
You buy the M8 to use all the old and new rangefinder lenses to take digital photos. Lots of people consider that wonderful.

The M8 is the only PRODUCTION digital camera that can do this. There's no other game in town. Give Leica a break.

I've never heard such whining and insanity by mental cases.

Buy one, and if there's a problem, Leica will fix it. It is not a film camera and it isn't exactly the same as an M3. It's not supposed to be an M3.

It takes great photos.

If it didn't exist, or if Leica went out of business, what would you do with all that beautiful glass? You'd all be moaning and complaining.

OK, there are some flaws. It's the first production run of a complicated machine by a company who has never built one before in-house. If you don't like it, don't keep it or don't buy it.

Stop the endless chatter about why it isn't "perfect", etc etc.

All posts about "going back to film, I've had it" in threads about the M8 should just be deleted. OK, you can't deal with it. Good for you. Plenty of people will deal with it, and use the camera.
 
>The reason I complained about the shutter noise is because it is NOT quiet. It
>is louder than the R-D1

Absolutely correct in my experience as well.

>If you buy a camera for mystic and romance you live on a different planet >than I do......I buy it to take photographs.

We clearly live on the same planet. If one was ever were to look at my web site, you'd definitely see that I buy cameras to take photographs. Lots of them.

If one was to look at the types of many of my photographs (and my proximity to my many of subjects), one might gain a greater appreciation of my concern for the sound the camera I use makes.

I choice to use an M7 precisely because of its relative silence -- and its reliability and compactness too, of course. In order to transition from film to digital, I need a camera with the same qualities as my M7.

No matter what anyone says, the M8 is simply not that camera.

And it is here that I feel that Leica has ended its long tradition in the M series and lost me.

People want to love the M8. That's fine. Love it on its own merits. But not as a continuation of the M family of cameras of which it is merely a pretender -- in more ways then one.
 
Dave - I'm perfectly comfortable with your decision that the M8 is not the camera for you or the use you want to make of it, and I find your reasons respectable and understandable. But, even as a Leica user of 35 years, I cannot understand the emotional background. It is just a tool, and there are plenty of other tools around. Love has little to do with it. For me is does what I expected it to do and and what I wanted it to - and does it beyond expectation. But if it didn't, well, I would buy some other camera that did. I probably would not waste more than one post on any Internet forum on it - if that.
 
jaap: Am I reading you correctly? You are talking about not wasting emotion/posts ... you who starts a thread about yet another photographer joining the M8 ranks? ;)
 
Yes - it is a bit confusing, Trius. I am happy about the way Leica is consistently providing tools I like and don't mind sharing that. But I certainly did not buy into the R8/R9 system because I disliked the bricks they were and hung on to my R5 and R7.It prevented me from buying into the DMR so I sold my R system in favour of Canon. I drove Volvo's for 25 years until they decided to move away from the rustic rock-hewn vehicles to more mainstream cars, but I did not condemn them for it. They lost 40% of their loyal customer base then btw but attracted more new ones. Let's see if Leica can pull that off as well. But these posts remind me of the guy who returned his new Rolls Royce. The only thing he could hear at 100 Mph was the ticking of the clock - so he found the clock too loud.
 
Edward Felcher said:
If it didn't exist, or if Leica went out of business, what would you do with all that beautiful glass? You'd all be moaning and complaining.
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Nah.. I won't.. I'll just hang on to my Leica gear until it's worth a ton of money and dump it for CASH! By then, another manufacture will step up and fill the digital RF void.
 
I've been called an M8 basher but in point of fact I am still considering buying one. I could do so easily at this moment, as there are some available at several sources. ( So much for long waiting lists.)

I never had a problem with the shutter noise, but I respect people who do.

I still have a huge problem with IR filters but I respect people who accept them.

I am still trying to figure out how I would deal with the cyan corners...probably initially try doing it myself rather than self-coding my lenses or getting the ones coded that are possible. The problem is, unless all my lenses were coded I would have to remember to keep going into the menu switching the lens recognition on and off each time I change from coded to uncoded lens and back. The IR filters might solve the magenta issue but not without introducing others.

But these lockups and shutoffs have to be solved before I will buy one, and I will have to see firmware 1.10 available and checked for additional bugs. I know nothing is perfect and things break. But there's a difference between normal risk and the risk I feel I would run buying an M8 at this point in time. If there are known issues affecting many people that so far the company has not issued a solution for, I don't want to pay $4800 and then get a day or a week out of it and have to send it back to Germany for a couple of months. So I will wait and see, but I would like to have a Leica DRF in my bag at some point in the not-distant future.
 
ErikFive said:
Since the thread says "clerly doomed" I would think that you understod that the thread wasnt going to get possitive about the M8 so you could not botter reading it. Many people are not satisfied with the camera and want to tell the people about it. If I bought this 5000$ camera and it breaks twice I would be really pissed and post at least 50posts about it. No product is always sunshine and people can say what they want to. I agree with you that it is alot of M8 bashing here, but there are the same amount of threads like "I love my M8" and "I sleep with my M8 cause its the best camera ever made". If people dont agree thats their biz and they have the right to do so. I have tested the M8 and my first thought was that the shutter is loud. I know it wouldnt botter me after a day or two, but it is loud.

No bashing here and im not trying to make enemies, just my thought.:)
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You may have misread my post. I don't deny anybody the right to voice disappointment. I merely expressed amazement at the high emotional content of the posts. Those that returned their camera for whatever reason were not out of a single dollar, so that cannot be a cause for being upset either. And yes, I posted many items on positive aspects on the M8. But all were based on fact,not emotions and often illustrated with examples. You will find no irrational: " I love my M8 "posts by my hand...
 
There are strong indications that Canon will indeed launch a new 1Ds II with 21 - 22 mill pixels. A prototype of such a camera was tested by photgraphers as far back as the last Olymic Games. The 1Ds II compete with the MF fleet, - in the lower end, ofcause, but is fully capable of matching many of the digital backs, particularly on high ISO settings.

If and when Canon will come with such a camera - we will know in a few days, I presume.

Further developments expected are some sort of 'dust removal system' and a sensor less prone to AC and corner vignetting, - and larger LCD. Software that streightens lines and corrects optical distortion might also be expected. Hasselblad already offers this.

If Canon launches a new 1Ds II, I fear that the M8 sale will fall like a stone. Many of the customers, - like myself, are the same and it is a limit to what we can finance. I am certain that a new 1Ds II is a far safer bet than buying a M8.

A 1Ds II file at 100ISO is a hefty thing. It measures about 1,2 x 1,8 meters at 100%. So is a high ISO file. They are immaculate as high as 800ISO and fully usable for smaller prints at 1250ISO, - and you can shoot at 3200ISO and get away with reasonable documentation of pritty dark scenes. So, even the model today, the 1Ds II, is a mighty camera.

I have had the EOS3, the 1Ds and the 1Ds II without ANY problems whatsoever. -

Æhum. Well....

With the exception of occational dust on the sensors of the two last ones, a lot of AC in the treetops (at wide open apartures), vignetting and soft corners on some extreme wide angle lenses. The 1Ds II has 'frozen' a few times for me, but it was solved by switching the camera 'off' and 'on' again. That simple.
 
ErikFive said:
Since the thread says "clerly doomed"
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The "clearly doomed" of the title refers to me not the camera - as in I am not destined to be the proud owner of working, reliable, no issues (other than those well known) M8. I know that some people have probems with watches going haywire - maybe that just it for me and the M8.
 
jaapv said:
... <cropped> You will find no irrational: " I love my M8 "posts by my hand...
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Ok, would you share with us what you *don't* like about your M8? There has to be something you don't like about it :)
 
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