Close up portraits (really close) with 4x5 or MF ... options?

[Keith]

My indigenous street group are becoming pretty comfortable with me finally and I was able to do some portraits of them with the Crown today. I'm kind of keen to keep shooting this project with LF but now want to really close in on their faces which the Graphic can't do with it's current 135mm lens and the rather rangy minimum focus distance of the rangefinder.

I seem to remember reading somewhere that the Graphics have alternate RF cams for various focal length lenses but don't have a clue what combo of focal length and cam I would need to have a face nearly taking up the entire 4x5 negative. I realise I can use the focusing screen and a dark cloth with a tripod to achieve this with a longer lens but that's not too practical in the hectic environment I'm shooting in.

Parhaps I'm barking up the wrong tree trying to do this with hand held large format and should think about MF ... but the only MF gear I have is my Bronica RF645 (the smallest MF format at 6x4.5) and my C500m Hassy which I currently only have an 80mm lens for?

I'm a bit sort of lost and unsure which way to go here!

 

[dfoo]

80mm is a bit short. Try to get a 150mm lens for the hassy... for 4x5 around 240-280mm would work well.

 

[Keith]

80mm is a bit short. Try to get a 150mm lens for the hassy... for 4x5 around 240-280mm would work well.

That thought crossed my mind but I was wondering if I'd get sharp images hand held with a 150mm lens without having to resort to fast film ... I'd prefer to use ISO 100. I'm also not sure I want the end results to be square images and if I crop I may as well use the Bronica's 6x4.5 with the 100mm lens I have for that ... which is actually a little marginal for face portraits anyway!

 

[Krzys]

Go 8x10 Keith!

 

[dfoo]

That thought crossed my mind but I was wondering if I'd get sharp images hand held with a 150mm lens without having to resort to fast film ... I'd prefer to use ISO 100. I'm also not sure I want the end results to be square images and if I crop I may as well use the Bronica's 6x4.5 with the 100mm lens I have for that ... which is actually a little marginal for face portraits anyway!

The 150mm lens I picked up for my hassy, while rough on the outside, was very cheap and super sharp... I think I payed less than $300 for it.

I've never shot it hand held, so I'm not sure what the results would be like.

 

[BillBingham2]

Keith,

What about a tripod, superman cape and popping open the ground glass on the back of the Crown?

I remember some stuff about different focal lengths too. Need to do some digging. I kind of remember them being wider than longer but I could be wrong.

Medium tripod and such? Your DOF up that close will almost require it I think.

What's the lighting like?

B2 (;->

 

[martin s]

Check out Steven Pyke (Rolleiflex / Rolleinar), should be an 80mm lens as well (maybe 75mm). Looks amazing up close. And maybe Martin Schoeller for 8x10 Portraits.

martin

 

[Finder]

This may sound like a sin to folks here, but why not try a close-up lens/filter on your 80mm on the Blad? It can easily be removed for working normal distances and is not a large investment. The quality can be very good--I put one on my Horseman SW612 6x12 medium-format camera for the same reason as the minimum focus distance is not enough. You want to use this with a camera using a ground glass--the Blad would be great for this.

The other advantage with a close-up lens other extension tubes is you don't lose any speed. The exposure is what you meter reads--extension tubes require a extension factor.

If I was going with large format, I would pre-focus the camera and use a distance stick/string--something easy to use to set up distance to the subject. The stick can be held up between the camera and person, the string is tied to the front of the camera and extended to the person when setting up the camera. Framing is always going to be the problem.

However, if you have a good relationship with these folks. Take your time and use the ground glass and tripod. As strange as it sounds, it is not that strange a setup for shooting documentary work.

 

[benlees]

Keith, why don't you send Frank Petronio a pm? Hard to think of anyone who could better give you some advice about your question!

 

[dfoo]

If you shot with 80mm lens with an extension tube, or a close up filter wouldn't you get distorted features (big noses and such?)

 

[Keith]

Keith

What about a tripod, superman cape and popping open the ground glass on the back of the Crown.

I remember some stuff about different focal lengths too. Need to do some digging. I kind of remember them being wider than longer but I could be wrong.

Medium tripod and such? Your DOF up that close will almost require it I think.

What's the lighting like?

B2 (;->

Sunny sixteen open shade on a clear day so about 1/60 or 1/125 at f4.7 with the Crown and ISO 100 film!

I suppose a tripod and dark cloth etc wouldn't be so much drama ... I'm already getting enough puzzled looks from passers by now so it coud only add a little to their curiosity I guess! 😀

The extension tube for the Hassy is something I hadn't thought of!

 

[Finder]

Extension tubes also affect image quality as the lens is not designed for the new distances. But both Hasselblad and Rollei have a long history of using supplimentary lenses where I doubt you will see a loss of quality. And the larger the format, the truer it is.

 

[Juan Valdenebro]

Once I needed exactly the same (getting closer for an unusual portrait) and I remember I made a test (many years ago) both with my Arca Swiss and my Hasselblad using that close-up made by Nikon... It's called 6T or something like that... I used it with adapter rings on my LF and MF lenses and was amazed at its optic quality: no speed loss and no quality loss on prints...

Cheers,

Juan

 

[Frank Petronio]

I don't think you can reliably shoot full-face handheld rangefinder-focused 4x5s with any lens or camera. You might get lucky sometimes but it would involve wasting a lot of film. The prefocused camera with a set amount of string (lens to nose) might be workable if you have a helper pull the string taunt, but even aiming the camera would be hard (a reason not to use too long a lens with the rangefinder).

I tend to like wide-normal lenses for close-ups and portraits but I am in the minority here. Although it is nice to know Avedon and Penn shot a lot of their best work with an 80mm on a 6x6 Rollei (some were with Tele-Rolleis though.) I think going wide on a face can be distorting and ugly but it can also make it more interesting and sculptural.

To me, the most reliable full-face, street-fast rigs would be a good 35mm or digital SLR with an 85/1.4 or fast 50; a Rollei with a close-up lens; or a Blad/RB/645 SLR with a normal or longer lens plus an extension tube. I used to use a Blad with a 120 Makro w a short ext tube and you could shoot those kinds of shots all day long with narly a miss. I'd save the 4x5, especially handheld, for moderate distances.

Martin Scholler shoots 8x10 head and shoulders shots but note he blasts them with light and stops down, he also has assistants to watch and make sure people hold their position. If you have a lot of light and shoot at f/22, even 8x10, you'll get reliable focus with most normal, calm people.

 

[martin s]

Martin Scholler shoots 8x10 head and shoulders shots but note he blasts them with light and stops down, he also has assistants to watch and make sure people hold their position. If you have a lot of light and shoot at f/22, even 8x10, you'll get reliable focus with most normal, calm people.

I never shot 8x10 - can you achieve the somewhat shallow DOF in his images stopped down to f22? I was always curious how exactly he takes those shots.

martin

 

[Steve M.]

I would suggest possibly a rethink. Go w/ a Leicaflex SL and a 90mm R Summicron or Elmarit lens. If you are patient you should be able to do this w/ the Elmarit selection for $500, or go w/ a Nikon N6006 w/ an adapter mount on the Leica R 90 lens for $400. I have used this for portraits and wow, the image quality is fantastic. Plus you are well away from the subject, and that makes for a more relaxing time for everyone concerned. Easy to fill the whole frame w/ just a head shot. If you really need large enlargements this won't work of course, but Leica being Leica, you can get some nice sized enlargements and still be very sharp.

The other advantage is the setup looks to most people like an old SLR camera (which it is, of course) and they don't pay you any mind. Pull out a LF or even a MF camera and you begin to look like a "photographer", which has it's good points as well as it's bad points on the street.

This shot is w/ that combo. The film was Tri-X, so using something else would give you finer grain and bigger enlargements. It will focus in much, much closer if you want. I like how the front part of the face is the only thing that's in focus (shot wide open) and the smooth bokeh on the busy background.

 

[Finder]

One thing to watch for with close-up filters is the added possibility of flare, especially when stacking them.

I would not recommend Keith to stack them, but to get the right filter for the working distance he would need. And a hood would never go amiss.

 

[LabasArabas]

Keith,
don't get stuck fussing about formats too much. I think that since you started with 4 x 5, stick to it. I suspect your indigenous friends are possibly curious about you because you're working hard using old fashioned, big, not particularly expensive camera stuff. I shoot a lot of 4 x 5 "by the seat of my pants" portraiture, and am convinced that respect for my trouble is returned, with patience, and a willingness to participate in the process. I agree with 'Finder' about the string focusing method. It works for me and distracts the poser to concentrate on something other than being self conscious. As for framing, you do have an idea of where the centre of the frame is, and if they hunch sideways or whatever, then thats ok. they will be on the side of the frame, or even chopped, but that's ok. Magic can happen.

I wouldn't worry about the wideangle distortion with your 135 lens at close range. If you put your face close to some one elses face to look closely, there will be perspective distortion, because you are much closer to their nose than their ears. But it is an intimate point of view.

good luck!

 

[Frank Petronio]

f/16 - f/22 on 8x10 will hold focus when the eyes are at an angle, you'll still lose the nose tip and ears

f/5.6 on 8x10 you only get one eye in focus ;-)

 

[Beemermark]

Try pre-focusing with the 135mm. Put the stops on the lens board down and pull the lens out past the stops. Then set it up on a tripod and using the GG get the bellows distance correct for the shooting distance to give you a frame filling shot. Now go shoot your victims without focusing while trying to maintain the same distance.