Collapsible Industar differences

[lrochfort]

Hello all,

I'd like to try a collapsible lens on my trusty FED-2.

A quick look on flebay shows there to be Industar 10, 22 and 50 available.

They all seem to be 50/3.5. What are the differences?

Any preferences?

Are there any other collapsible LTM FSU lenses?

Cheers,
Laurence

 

[newst]

Some Soviet Lens Information Resources
https://www.fedka.com/Frames/Main_Frame.htm
http://www.sovietcams.com/index.php?643375220

I suspect you will see greater differences in these lenses based on when they were produced (improved coatings, refined optics) and what condition they are in than you will see between different models of lens. That, at least, has been my experience.

These are so inexpensive, they were produced in the millions, it wouldn't be a burden to buy one of each, from different eras possibly, and compare them.


FED, 50/3.5, Elmar Type

The FED 50mm collapsible lens design was "borrowed" from Leitz Elmar. This lens appeared first on the first FEDs in the 1930's and is was also known as Industar-10. In the late 1940's this design was handed over to the KMZ factory and the Industar-22 was born.

The FED 50/f:3.5 design and appearance stayed virtually unchanged for decades, but the optical parameters were constantly improving. Resolution increased, coating appeared in the early 1950's. By the mid 1950's the lens was "finalized", and the later versions of the lens are sharp and contrasty, well suited for black and white and color photography.

The FED is of the same quality as the Industar-22 and Industar-50, and it was made exclusively by the FED factory in Kharkov.

Industar-22, 50/3.5, Elmar Type

The Industar-22 design was "borrowed" from Leitz Elmar. It was an improved version of a prewar collapsible FED lens (also known as Industar-10).

The Industar-22 was a standard lens on the early Zorki cameras (Zorki, Zorki-S, some of Zorki-2S') and was also a popular enlarger lens in the USSR in the 60's.

Industar-50, 50/3.5, Elmar Type

The Industar-50 is one of the most successful Soviet made lenses. It was a standard or optional lens on practically every Zorki camera, from Zorki-S in the mid 50's to Zorki-4K in the mid 70's. The lens was also made in a 39 and 42 mm SLR mount and was installed (standard or optional) on every Zenit model as well, from Zenit-S to Zenit-E. It came in different shapes and finishes, from a chrome collapsible Elmar-style lens to a black "flat" Zenit lens. The optical formula was always the same (Leitz Elmar 50/3.5), the lens produced sharp and contrasty images.

This Industar-50 is the Elmar-type collapsible version. It was primarily used on the Zorki-5, but was also sold separately. The Industar-50 was also a popular enlarger lens.

 

[Ko.Fe.]

I-10 is very close in the look and dimensions to Elmar. But it isn't optically Leica. None of them. I-10 is OK lens.
I-50 and I-22 aren't similar to Elmar in the size and in the construction of the front.
I-50 was improved for central sharpness and edges are OK.
I-22 is the King of collapsible Industars.
They might not fit on FED-2 right away. Zorki models have higher lens mount flange. FED-2 flange is lower and as result the lens focusing collar will not travel as far (inside) as it should. Filing of the focus tab butt will do the trick.

 

[bobby_novatron]

Wow, lots of good info on this thread. I always assumed that the CCCP lenses and cameras didn't have a lot of variation, but I was wrong.

I'll have to go back to my Jean-Loup Princelle book and refresh my memory. "слава советской фотографии!" 🙂

 

[farlymac]

I really wished my I-22 would fit a FED 2, but I'm not modifying it to do so. Watch out for FED 50's that are indexed 90 degrees clockwise from the standard.

PF

 

[geoffox23]

I suggest the collapsible lens designed specifically for the FED-2, which has a clip-lock instead of the usual push-button infinity release.

 

[ForestCap]

KOMZ version industar-22 and industar-50 have 10 aperture blades. While KMZ and LZOS versions have 7 or 8. Very early KMZ I-22 has also 10 blades, it has an extra Zorki name engrave on the lens.

According to zenitcamera.com, I-50 has higher resolution.
http://www.zenitcamera.com/archive/lenses/industar-50.html

KOMZ I-50 has thicker lens barrel and is heavier. I like mine much better than other versions of I-22 or I-50.

To use the lenses on FED-2, you need to bend the infinity lock upwards a bit otherwise the lock would scratch/stuck on the vulcanite on the camera body.

 

[Wulfthari]

I-10 is very close in the look and dimensions to Elmar. But it isn't optically Leica. None of them. I-10 is OK lens.
I-50 and I-22 aren't similar to Elmar in the size and in the construction of the front.
I-50 was improved for central sharpness and edges are OK.
I-22 is the King of collapsible Industars.
They might not fit on FED-2 right away. Zorki models have higher lens mount flange. FED-2 flange is lower and as result the lens focusing collar will not travel as far (inside) as it should. Filing of the focus tab butt will do the trick.

You are of course correct, even if they look like Elmars they are actually Tessar designs.

The I-50 was made as collapsible or rigid (even in SLR M42 mount) and it's reputed to be the sharpest of the bunch, just the I-61 with Lanthanium is sharper.

 

[David Hughes]

Hi,

The Industar-22 is longer than the FED versions of the f/3.5 50mm lenses and I suspect it was based on the CZ Tessar, unlike the FED version that looks like Leitz's Elmar from the 30's. That might make it (the I-22) 53mm or so but all lenses vary a little. Only Leica marked them to show the variation and that didn't happen until much later and I don't know if it applied to all focal lengths..

All of them, by the way, evolved from Cooke's Triplet. Very few lenses are completely new designs before computers were used. Mostly, I guess, because of the tedious work involved in the calculations. And I suspect they all looked at each other's designs and wondered about modifying them.

Regards, David

 

[ForestCap]

http://www.zenitcamera.com/archive/lenses/industar-22.html
zenitcamera.com says I-22 is 51.39mm, which is quite close to "Leica standard" 50mm lens.

(Now I suddenly think of a thread somewhere talking about shimming I-22 to match a Leica body..Oops)

 

[Ko.Fe.]

....
The I-50 was made as collapsible or rigid (even in SLR M42 mount) and it's reputed to be the sharpest of the bunch, just the I-61 with Lanthanium is sharper.

Here is most detailed document to describe the difference between I-22 and I-50. But it is in Russian.
http://www.artoptics.narod.ru/Industar22_50.pdf

Some details in this document describes why I preferred I-22 for bw. I-50 is better for color.

 

[David Hughes]

Hi,

There seems to be a lot of variation between old Elmars and late 30's Elmars. 2 or 3mm just by looking and wondering how to measure without touching the lens surface. (OK, I know about using a microscope but even that's a problem getting the measurements.)

The same goes for FED's version and so on. Trying to count the variations has made me stop there but somewhere on the www there's a paper by a German (from memory) about all the USSR made lenses showing the elements and their configuration, but can I find it?

Regards, David

 

[lrochfort]

Some great information here, thanks.

I always forget made lenses with the FED name.

So is it safe to say that for ease of mounting on the FED-2, the FED lenses would be better than Industar?

 

[lrochfort]

I suggest the collapsible lens designed specifically for the FED-2, which has a clip-lock instead of the usual push-button infinity release.

Could you tell me the name of this lens?

 

[Ko.Fe.]

The name of the lens is FED. Second name is Industar-10. FED for FED, I guess, not for FED-2, which was with I-26(m) as the kit lens.

It all depends what you want. If it is for pocketability get I-10 (FED) it is smallest and neatest lens among three. Not the sharpest one. If you want to see what this Tessar version is capable of, get rigid I-50. It is ugly, weird to handle lens, but sharp one 🙂

The older lens you'll get the most likely it to have stiff aperture selector ring. I-10 (FED) is the oldest one. I-50 is newer.


FED on FED. by Kostya Fedot, on Flickr

 

[David Hughes]

Hi,

I've been wondering about this for a while and decided to do some (crude) measuring.

FWIW, the FED 50mm lenses on 1938/39 and 1950/51 FED's seem to be based on the early Elmar Leitz lenses on my 1926 'Hockey Stick' model.

Later Elmars from 1938 seem to be about 3mm longer than the 1926 ones. And the Industar-22 on my 1953 Zorki 1 is 6mm longer than the FED ones.

Despite searching through the heap I can't find an Industar-50, apart from one on a Zenit that doesn't count.

Anyway, there we are with a rough guide to what a few 50mm focal lengths measure up to when on the camera. BTW, all bodies were 30mm thick except for the Zorki at 31mm. I assume the film plane is in the same place and can't think of a way of measuring because of the springy pressure plate.

A lot of photo's with all the lenses carefully focussed on a brick wall might show differences in focal length but I just haven't the time and don't want to risk dropping the M9 (because I'd have to take it on and off of the tripod so often).

Regards, David

 

[Steve M.]

At one time or another I owned them all, and used them on Zorkis, Feds and Leicas w/ no issues. They all imaged pretty much the same. Different optical design than the Elmars, but you would be hard pressed to pick one print from the other side by side, except that in most cases the Industar would usually be sharper, especially wide open, and often exhibited more of a "Leica" way of imaging than the Leica lens! I have nothing bad to say about FSU glass, and nothing good to say about the cameras :{

If I was going to buy one it would probably be the I 22, but there's no real reason, other than that was what I most often shot. Another consideration would be how you set the aperture, as the I-10 has that fiddely little deal on the front like an Elmar and is often a PITA to adjust.