Comments on Fuji rangefinders, alternatives in MF?

[ottluuk]

Hello all,

For starters, I will have to apologize for the long and rambling post. But bear with me if you can.

I already have a decent pair of digital cameras that work well for me (Canon 40D with a bunch of primes and a much-loved GRD III). I abandoned shooting film a few years ago. Lately, I've had the nagging feeling that I'm not really doing justice to some of the places that I visit, both by not being deliberate enough and by the gear's limits in quality, especially tonality in B&W conversions and dynamic range.

As a possible solution, I have been researching various options in medium format. My requirements are roughly as follows:

1) Modern (sharp wide open, no excessive distortions or field curvature) lens in 28 - 40mm equivalent range. A fixed lens camera is ok if the lens is good.

2) The camera should be relatively lightweight and compact. Hand-holdable. Light weight is really important. I've had some scary problems with my back and I cannot lug around a tripod + several kilos of camera gear everywhere.

3) The camera needs to be tough and dependable. It will definitely be used in cold (-25 Celsius if needed) and will travel in various backpacks all year around.

4) the hard part: $400.

Here's what I've come up with so far:

* Fuji GS645S - most affordable of the rangefinder bunch, as far as I can see, but gets mixed reviews for build quality and viewfinder usability. What about that rangefinder, then? The scale focus, 28mm-equivalent GS645W is rarer and more expensive.

* Fuji GA645 series - good reviews, but still, what about focus accuracy? Good examples are pushing my budget, again with the wide versions being considerably more expensive.

* Fixed-lens Fuji 690's - good reviews, reliable, BUT big, heavy and meterless. too expensive, when in good condition.

* Mamiya 6/7 and Bronica RF 645 - Excellent but Expensive. I could only afford terribly battered examples, especially regarding the Mamiya 7

* SLRs - Anything bigger than 6x6 is big and heavy. I would prefer a rectangular format to square and using a waist-level finder only is not good for verticals. Prisms are big and heavy even for 645 SLRs. On the plus side, manual focus Mamiya 645's and Bronica ETRSi's can be very cheap. I'm not sure about the quality of the wider lenses though.

* TLRs - generally 6x6 only and not wide enough. Cheap, though. Don't know much about them.
* Vintage folders - Not my cup of tea, I'm afraid.


I guess the best contenders so far are the Fuji 645 bunch for functionality/mobility and something like a Fuji GW690 for image quality and foolproof dependability? Is there sound reasoning in my considerations or just sheer madness?

 

[FPjohn]

Consider, carefully, a Century or Baby Speed Graphic especially with a modern lens such as a Nikkor W 105mm. If you prefer 6x7, a 80mm Xenar/Tessar performs well while f2.8 Planars and Xenotars do exist at a cost. Past generation short focal length view camera lenses are easy to find used at low prices.

A good alternative is a Graphic XL.

http://graflex.org/articles/XL.html

yours
FPJ

 

[jamesdfloyd]

I am debating the same issue. I love the Fuji 690's, but there is such a run-up on the prices on HayBay. Every bit of logic in me says Mamiya 7, but when I add up the price of the Mamiya 7 kit I want, it eclipses the price of other gear I would use more often for my other photography needs.

Who knows...by the time I decide, it might be the new Fuji folder...or the next Fuji folder.

J.D.

 

[mfogiel]

Save up, and get the Hasselblad SWC/M , a different angle alternative would be the Hasselblad Xpan with the 45mm lens.

 

[JayGannon]

RB/RZ 67 is heavy enough but amazing quality for the money.

 

[Steve M.]

I've owned several of the GA645s Fujis. They're basically a plastic camera w/ loud shutters, and all of mine had to have their shutters repaired. No new parts are available for this either. I've also owned a Fuji 6x9 rangefinder and a Mamiya 7. Didn't like them. The Fuji is HUGE. Wow, it's big. The Mamiya felt fragile (the film transport actually is), the rangefinder wouldn't stay aligned, and I didn't care for the image quality of either, although others like them.

Just buy a Rolleiflex or a Bessa II or Bessa RF w/ a Heliar or Skopar lens. By any standards you wish to use, they have the best image quality in MF photography, and are built to a much higher level. Let me tell you what I've seen w/ my own eyes from large prints-the older German medium format lenses will blow away any modern medium format camera except the Bessa III by a considerable margin. I even had to sell my 'blad because it wasn't up to the Rolleiflex Planar I used.

 

[Roger Hicks]

At $400 probably your only bet is a Graflex XL or Koni-Omega. Otherwise there are baby Linhofs, Mamiya-Press and Polaroid 600SE with roll-film adapter.

Cheers,

R.

 

[ottluuk]

Consider, carefully, a Century or Baby Speed Graphic especially with a modern lenses such as a Nikkor W 105mm.

A good alternative is a Graphic XL.

http://graflex.org/articles/XL.html

yours
FPJ

This is an interesting direction to look at, but reason tells me that a camera with no interlocks to tell me that I haven't pulled a dark slide or cocked the shutter will cause a lot of grief, especially in adverse weather. To say nothing of the lack of meters. I guess I should have listed idiot-proof in my requirements... But I'll think about this.

 

[ottluuk]

Save up, and get the Hasselblad SWC/M , a different angle alternative would be the Hasselblad Xpan with the 45mm lens.

SWC? Awesome. But saving up to a point where I could comfortably spill something like $2000 on what is essentially a wide-angle lens (excellent as it may be) with a shutter and detachable film back... I just don't see it. I've got to eat, you know. Seriously. 🙁

 

[ottluuk]

At $400 probably your only bet is a Graflex XL or Koni-Omega. Otherwise there are baby Linhofs, Mamiya-Press and Polaroid 600SE with roll-film adapter.

Cheers,

R.

Hm. Currently, KEH lists a Fuji GS645S (EX) and a GW690 (BGN) for $399. Obviously, there are shipping and taxes after that but still...

 

[Matus]

You did not mention what is the main use of the MF camera, but I guess it would be for "that film feeling", so here is what I would choose with the set of limitations you have metioned:

1) low weight - simply forget the SLRs. The is no free lunch and even if some of them produce rather little vibrations by the mirror (Pentax 645N comes to my mind) none of then is light. Truth to be told there are very good lenses available - I would not be concerned about wide open sharpness of Hasselblad or Contax 645 lenses. Far from $400 as well.

2) if TLR are not wide enough with their 75 or 80 mm lenses, you could still consider Mamiya C models TLRs as these have exchangeable lenses starting from 65mm. However these are larger and heavier that classical TLRs. I had Roleiflex T which is a very fine machine and perfect for portraits and moody shots wide open and very shrp when stopped down. it was not really that scarry sharp wide open (but still more thab good ebough) and none of TLRs for under $400 will (Rolleiflex F models cost much more)

3) classical folder cameras - none will be that sharp wide open and there are no folders with wide lenses.

4) Modern RF cameras. I have recently got Mamiya 6 with all 3 lenses. It is pretty much perfect sharpness wise. I gave a long thought to Bronica RF645 and Mamiya 7, but Mamiya 7 costs even more and the lenses do not collapse which is a very nice feature of Mamiya 6. RF645 is said to be very good and at the same time it is cheaper than Mamiya 6, but still not under $400. If you thing that you could put together more money AND you do not really like/need long lenses than the RF645 would be a good option as the wide lens (45) has rather reasonable price if you would want to add it later to the 65.

5) the large 6x9 Fuji RF are said to have excellent lenses, but are rather large and heavy (about twice as heavy as GA645). Should definitely be usable hand held, but for full performance a tripod would probably be advisable. I have never owned one though.

6) The GS645 & GS645W - I would probably skip in favor of GA645. The AF is very good. One sample image (4000 spi scan) can be seen HERE (bottom of the page) to get the idea about the performance. If you do not mind the AF, than this would be the cheapest ticket to 645 MF camera with very good optical performance. It would probably be also my choice if I were price limited. Also the closest focus distance is 0.5m - none of the RF cameras will get you that close.

Still - if you need fast lenses (f/2.8 or faster) or close focusing than SLRs are the only way to go. In that case I would probably choose Mamiya 645 system as it is affordable and very modular.

Should you decide for a rangefinder - than try to get your hands on one before buying - it is completely different animal than an SLR.

good luck with your choice. The good point is - most of used MF cameras can be sold for nearly the same you have paid for them few months ago, so you can change your mind later.

 

[tlitody]

if its pure out and out high image quality then a GW690 will deliver. And if you are scanning then there is no substitute for neg real estate. But if its portability then one of the 645s will be good.

My only concern with the now older Fujis are that they were mostly used by pro photographers and have likely been very well used.
The GA645ZI looks like an interesting possibility but I worry about reliability as its got a lot of automation.

If money was no object then the Mamiya 7II would be the way to go or the upcoming new Fuji GF670W (55mm lens) which seems to have been forgotten in the excitement over the X100

View attachment 82001

 

[ottluuk]

You did not mention what is the main use of the MF camera, but I guess it would be for "that film feeling", so here is what I would choose with the set of limitations you have metioned:

---

Basically the reasons why I would like to shoot 120 are:
1) Getting better resolution and tonality in B&W than I can get from my digital cameras. This should not be impossible with low to medium speed films, right?
2) Film grain. Every now and then I like to shoot some high ISO/available darkness stuff for a gritty look but digital noise never looks right. Banding is a terrible thing. 35mm would do OK for this, but I've shot my share of 35mm and the negatives are just... unimpressive. My grandfather's old 6x6 negs from a now-dead Ljubitel TLR are so much nicer :bang:
3) Separate the workflow for "serious" personal work from casual snaps and work-related documentation. Right now, everything I shoot just pours straight into Lightroom. No order, just chaos!

 

[ItsReallyDarren]

For a lightweight and affordable option I think the Mamiya 645 is the best bet. Body plus wide lenses are plentiful and cheap, can be very light and easy to carry with just a folding wasitline viewfinder.

 

[MatthewThompson]

The folding GS645 would be my pick. Likely the most portable and travel-friendly of the bunch. Actually, I wonder why I went for the GA over the GS sometimes. The GA is nice and the lens is a peach, but it seems noisy while shooting (other say it's pretty quiet).

 

[aizan]

some of these options are as big and heavy as some medium format slrs.

the fuji ga645 is within your budget.

 

[Bobfrance]

The Mamiyas are very nice, but Fujis are great value for money. I own two. I'd say go for the GS645 folder. It's a great performer and folds down small. Great for travel, though it is surprisingly heavy for it's size.

I've recently got a GA645zi which I can only describe as a MF contax G1, but I think you'd appreciate a more basic experience.

Some people complain that the bellows can split and the shutter cable can snap, but with you budget you should be able to get a top notch one and not worry.

 

[Doug]

I have the GW670III, Bronica RF645, GS645S, and GA645Wi. Of these, I just cannot get fond of the big clunky 670. I like both the 645 Fujis, different as they are. The GS is very light and compact, with an excellent 60mm lens and lovely range/viewfinder with field-size correction as well as parallax. Noisy shot counter though. GA is quiet, and you have to like the auto-everything p&s character. Favorite of all is the Bronica, smooth, quality, quiet, great lenses, compact, what a sweetie! It does not feature field-size correction though, and the 45mm includes an accessory viewfinder, though I just use the whole window as a close approximation.

 

[benlees]

GA645's can be had for less than $400. They regularly pop up around here for $300. I have one and have had a GW690ii, which $400 is unlikely to be enough. The GA is a great camera. Quite small, great lens, very light. Great value, overall.

 

[bensyverson]

If weight is really that big of a concern, then just use your 40D and spend the money on good stitching software (Autopano Pro).

A few frames of stitched digital can easily beat MF for static subjects. The workflow is kind of a pain, but the same could be said for scanning film.