Comparative camera handholding treshold

[mfogiel]

Hi, I am new to this forum, so I would much appreciate some expert advice. I want to try a rangefinder mainly as an ideal everyday carryaround camera.
I have come back to photography as a serious hobby after some 30 years of holiday snapping, as soon as I realized I could recreate a full workflow without a darkroom thanks to the progress in modern photo printers.

I am using various formats now, between film and digital, but I am slowly converging versus predominantly B&W photography with film, and some portraiture with the digital. In 35mm I am using a Nikon FM3A with Zeiss ZF lenses, and the experience is very rewarding. There are some issues though, like some difficulty to focus in dim light, especially with the WA, a less than ideal weight (better than digital SLR's or MF, but still...), and above all a relative difficulty to eliminate camera shake from ambient light pictures.

So, having seen some impressive statements from rangefinder users about their ability to handhold, I'd like to find out if anybody has actually made any tests about the critical shutter speeds for handholding, comparing various rangefinders. My friendly salesman in a photo store reckons, that film Leicas have an inherent edge in handheld shots because of the extremely light cloth shutter.

Has anybody actually experienced a difference between the results with the same lens between, say an M7, Zeiss Ikon and/or a Bessa ? I intend to try lenses up to 50, maybe 75mm, so the telephoto issue is not a problem here.

I have read on Erwin Put's site, that according to his experience, anything less than 1/200 ( I think he was relating to a 50mm lens) can degrade the image substantially. On the other hand, I've read extensive tests done with a Nikon D2x, which substantially confirm, that (at least with digital) the old rule of using the shutter speed equivalent to the reciprocity of your focal length (in 35mm standards) suffices to get 10 out of 10 sharp images on par with tripod made shots.

So where is the rangefinder truth?

 

[ferider]

It very much depends on what you want to shoot, some pictures need more
sharpness than others. For instance, I would never hand-held a landscape at 1/8th,
but people shots at 1/8th can be OK, if the technique is right (breathing & bracketing)

Without scientific experiments, I have shot Bessas and Leicas side by side.
Leicas do not have an advantage over Bessad, even though Bessas are louder
(you would assume the energy goes somewhere ...).

My guess for the reason is that the Bessas have double shutters that run
against each other, which eliminates first order shutter-induced vibrations.

Roland.

 

[VinceC]

I think differences between shutter construction are not going to be too meaningful. Too many other factors. The Leica cameras weigh a bit more than some of the others, which gives them greater inertia, making them perhaps a bit easier to handhold. But lens weight is also a factor. On the other hand, a light camera is easier to carry around. Some cameras use vertical shutter blades, which have less momentum and shorter travel distance. In all shutters, there are counter-balances and shutter brakes involved to dampen the action.

The slowest I've repeatedly handheld anything is 1/4 with a Nikon F and 17mm lens. I get consistent results at 1/8 using Nikon RFs with 50mm and wider lenses. I routinely shoot 35mm and 28mm lenses at 1/8 second. The biggest factor here is to practice. It is also important to be constantly on the lookout for appropriate surfaces on which to place the camera. A good canvas camera bag can make a remarkably capable 'tripod" because you can adjust the camera position so easily. In recent experience, I've used countertops, table tops, restaurant napkin holders and, for an impromptu family portrait, a trash can.

Erwin Puts is often seeking some level of perfection out of his optical equipment. There are many photographic philosophies and rangefinder philosophies. I'm using 50-year-old cameras and lenses because I like carrying a small, basic, well-crafted camera that is capable of delivering outstanding images. It is all about having a camera to capture moments of humanity. If I truly sought the most flawless images possible, I'd be carrying a plate view camera or medium format.

EDIT: I should add that the camera I most consistently handhold at low shutter speeds is my Canon Powershot G1, which I can easily shoot at 1/4 or 1/6 handheld with the lens zoomed to the equivalent of up to 100mm.

 

[VinceC]

>>My guess for the reason is that the Bessas have double shutters that run
against each other, which eliminates first order shutter-induced vibrations.<<

The double-shutters might also help block light from fogging the film.

 

[jamiewakeham]

I suspect that, once you've eliminated the bloody-great-flappy-mirror-banging-about issue, subtle refinements of the shutter have comparitively little effect.

My rule of thumb goes:
1/focal length* is generally OK - not 100%, but probably 90%.
Lose at least a stop for guaranteed sharpness.
Gain a stop for a monopod, a shoulder or a beanbag.
Gain a stop for my MF Arax with its WLF as I can hold it tight into my stomach!
Gain about two stops for a rangefinder.
Gain about two stops for a solid surface (sturdy table or doorway) to hold the camera onto.

I can then go about one more stop as long as I have two or three attempts; one of them will probably come out.

Jamie

* this must be 35mm equivalent, of course, as the FoV is actually what controls camera shake. All other things being equal you could expect to handhold a 50mm lens in 35mm format about as well as an 80m lens in MF, etc.

 

[mfogiel]

Thanks for your replies. The news about the particular Bessa shutter is quite inspiring, I wonder if Zeiss Ikon uses the same one. I've already ordered a Bessa R4 for the wider lenses, and was indecided between the ZI and Leica for longer ones, but the shutter question has been keeping me in doubt.

Just to show you what I am talking about, this is a link to a photo taken with the camera resting on a table and self timer released (with miror lock-up):

http://www.flickr.com/photo_zoom.gne?id=484319483&context=set-72157600129345564&size=l

It looks pretty detailed to me, even if the Distagon 25 ZF is a tiny bit soft (relatively speaking) in the corners.

Instead this one has been taken handheld:

http://www.flickr.com/photo_zoom.gne?id=494049189&context=set-72157600129466148&size=l

Although the lens used is absolutely spectacular (Makro Planar 50/2 ZF) this has been shot at 1/60 handheld, and even though it may look ok, when you look at fine detail underneath, you will notice that there is some motion blur evident in the writing below the Triumph logo, which, I can only guess, should stand for "GREAT BRITAIN".

At an A3 size it won't be a problem, but at A2 it would become evident.

It is not to say, that this type of imperfection would invalidate a shot by Cartier Bresson, but alas, I am not in the same league, so I like to think that my fuzzy concepts better be sharp, otherwise Ansel Adams could sentence from the grave, that after all there is something worse than a sharp picture of a fuzzy concept: an unsharp one... hahaha...

 

[clarence]

My rule of thumb goes:
1/focal length* is generally OK - not 100%, but probably 90%.
Lose at least a stop for guaranteed sharpness.
Gain a stop for a monopod, a shoulder or a beanbag.
Gain a stop for my MF Arax with its WLF as I can hold it tight into my stomach!
Gain about two stops for a rangefinder.
Gain about two stops for a solid surface (sturdy table or doorway) to hold the camera onto.

'Artistic' photos - Gain at least 5 stops
MTF Hand-wringing - Lose at least 3 stops
Taking pictures of children and pets - Lose 2 stops
Just had a double expresso - Lose 1 stop
Just had a couple of drinks - + / - stop, depending on what you're like

Clarence

 

[VinceC]

I once had a friend who was amazingly relaxed and easy going. He had no problem handholding a Nikon SLR with 82/2 at 1/8 of a second. He was just a calm guy. A human tripod.

 

[photophorous]

I've never compared a Leica to a Bessa, but here is an example of a 1/15 sec hand-held shot with my Bessa R2A and a 50mm lens.
http://www.flickr.com/photos/photophore/479351831/
It would be sharper had I used a tripod, but it's plenty sharp for a grab shot. I couldn't do that with an SLR...digital or film.

The best type of shutter to hand hold at slow speeds is a leaf shutter, like the one in a Canonet or a TLR. They're circular/symmetric, so momentum from the shutter pieces cancel each other out. It's not exact, but it's your best hope. They're quite too.

Paul

 

[mfogiel]

I have just done a test shoot with my R4A and 28/28 Elmarit, from 1/125 down to 1/4 sec. Will post the results next week when I get my film from the lab. When you do a test like this, you start understanding what people here say: shoot breathing out and between the hartbeats...

 

[foto_fool]

The news about the particular Bessa shutter is quite inspiring, I wonder if Zeiss Ikon uses the same one.

I have both and believe they are the same - if not the same than very similar.

- John

 

[Dave Wilkinson]

I have just done a test shoot with my R4A and 28/28 Elmarit, from 1/125 down to 1/4 sec. Will post the results next week when I get my film from the lab. When you do a test like this, you start understanding what people here say:
shoot breathing out and between the hartbeats...

I find (after 40+years) by far the best cameras for handholding at 'silly' speeds - have leaf shutters !

Regards, Dave🙂