Confession, or Group Therapy?

[Gumby]

Societies have norms which establish limits of individual behavior - some of these have nothing to do with simple survival or reproduction, they are inventions by humans for the purpose of perpetuating the artificial mechanism of society.

Who wrote the Ten (10) Commandments?

(In anticipation of your response... yes, I know).

 

[bmattock]

Who wrote the Ten (10) Commandments?

(In anticipation of your response... yes, I know).

And as I am sure you could have guessed, I do not know.

In any case, societies predate the Ten Commandments, and had both rules and codes of behavior before then as well.

 

[Gumby]

And as I am sure you could have guessed, I do not know.

Dang... I'm getting to be a psychic! 😱

 

[bmattock]

Dang... I'm getting to be a psychic! 😱

I presume you have a point to make. I kind of wish you'd get to it, I'm planning on toddling off to bed shortly.

 

[Merkin]

One could argue that the society is not a strictly human concept. Many would argue that lions, for instance, have a society, depending upon your definition of society.

 

[MikeL]

Right and wrong are human inventions. Therefore, for an injustice to be done, it must be done by humans and perpetrated upon humans. One human, I posit, can be innocent - as long as there are no other humans.

I do not agree. We live in societies. For humans to live in societies, laws must exist which compel behavior for the good of the society rather than the individual.

Bill, if you look into other animals that form social groups, you'll find they have plenty of 'laws'. No different, they also have right and wrong, and punishment exists for transgressions. Their social structure and survival as a group, count on it. Just like our societies do.

 

[Gumby]

I presume you have a point to make. I kind of wish you'd get to it, I'm planning on toddling off to bed shortly.

Yes, me too.

My point is that many believe that there is a Divine who has established right and wrong. It is mentioned more than a few times in both testaments. That's all. The comments you've made are what I've heard from my best friend who is a devout secular humanist. Just trying to interject an alternative viewpoint.

This is neither intended to be confession or group-therapy, just idle chat.

Good night bill.

 

[Gumby]

One could argue that the society is not a strictly human concept. Many would argue that lions, for instance, have a society, depending upon your definition of society.

Ants and bees DEFINITELY have societies too.

 

[bmattock]

One could argue that the society is not a strictly human concept. Many would argue that lions, for instance, have a society, depending upon your definition of society.

Something to think about, thanks.

 

[bmattock]

My point is that many believe that there is a Divine who has established right and wrong. It is mentioned more than a few times in both testaments. That's all. The comments you've made are what I've heard from my best friend who is a devout secular humanist. Just trying to interject an alternative viewpoint.

I'm a devout Catholic, and I also believe in such things. That said, I do not know who wrote the Ten Commandments. I believe it was God, but I do not know that, because I cannot prove it. It was not my intention to drag the unprovable into the discussion, so I left it out.

 

[Al Kaplan]

My ideal is a world where people do the right thing because they want to do the right thing, not because they're being told that a Higher Power has mandated it, or simply out of desire to spend an eternity in some perfect place, or the fear of an eternity frying down below.

The unfortunate reality is that we like to think that we're rational creatures just becasuse we and our culture have evolved to the point where we can recognize the concept of rationality. Rational people don't get GAS, yet to some degree or another we all suffer from it.

 

[Merkin]

My ideal is a world where people do the right thing because they want to do the right thing, not because they're being told that a Higher Power has mandated it, or simply out of desire to spend an eternity in some perfect place, or the fear of an eternity frying down below.

The unfortunate reality is that we like to think that we're rational creatures just becasuse we and our culture have evolved to the point where we can recognize the concept of rationality. Rational people don't get GAS, yet to some degree or another we all suffer from it.

I would argue that rational people can get GAS, but I doubt that rational people can get CESS. (For those that werent reading the Leica board earlier, CESS, an Al Kaplan original, stands for Compulsive Equipment Schlepping Syndrome.)

 

[thomasw_]

My ideal is a world where people do the right thing because they want to do the right thing, not because they're being told that a Higher Power has mandated it, or simply out of desire to spend an eternity in some perfect place, or the fear of an eternity frying down below.

This ideal of yours does fit with the reality of human nature. To some extent all rules work on a reward/punishment basis; most men need this foundation as a framework for their actions, so it surprises me little that societies or deities have used it. It seems odd to me that you'd expect men to do what is right because of a desire or love of goodness; my experience has taught me to have the exact opposite expectation. It seems to me that I do what is good out of a sense of personal honour or duty. Not a very sexy truth, but it is the case.

The unfortunate reality is that we like to think that we're rational creatures just becasuse we and our culture have evolved to the point where we can recognize the concept of rationality...............

In our fractured Western culture we can't even agree on whose rationality we should follow let alone what the questions are that might led us to answers about what is 'right' or 'good' or 'just'. If we have 'evolved' as you suggest, it seems that we have moved away from any moral compass. I am not so certain that that is changing mankind for the better though.

 

[kievman]

Not always confession or group therapy, but sometimes it is just bragging, and in a rather unsubtle manner, too.

Example:


Quote:
I just took delivery on my new Zeiss-Leica ZK4, the gold-anodized version, of course, which I had blessed by the Dalai Lama and the Pope who were both stoned at the time, and I've got the Noktonium f/.05 apoclimactic lens as well as the film made of light-sensitive lark's tongue in aspic (german, naturalich), and I'm about to undertake a year-long tour of the historic brothels of the Beeblebrox Dynasty with my school chum George Lucas and the corpse of Armand Hammer, and some druids who will be praying for our film and cutting themselves periodically in penance, and I was wondering - should I use a lens hood? I'll be traveling by personal zepplin, which is kept aloft by the dreams of 15,000 vestal virgins listening to Billy Joel songs. I deflower some of them when we wish to descend. Dirty job, but someone has to do it.
I read these and wonder how much they care about my opinion of a lens hood.


LOL! LOL! If God has a sense of humor I am sure he or she or it is still laughing after reading the the above piece, I know haven't laughed that hard in a while!!!!!! BTW- Leica and Zeiss are two words that should not be put together...... chuckle chuclkle.... Now after all this serious discussion can we all get a sense of humor?????? or maybe a good nites sleep or a good somethin..... Use your imagination after all (some) of us are creative types... Warning: None of this post is to be taken seriously -M

 

[Gumby]

My ideal is a world where people do the right thing because they want to do the right thing, not because they're being told that a Higher Power has mandated it, or simply out of desire to spend an eternity in some perfect place, or the fear of an eternity frying down below.

The unfortunate reality is that we like to think that we're rational creatures just becasuse we and our culture have evolved to the point where we can recognize the concept of rationality. Rational people don't get GAS, yet to some degree or another we all suffer from it.

For "believers", the ideal world you describe was the way it was for Adam and Eve... but it all ended about the second chapter of Genesis. 😉

Rationality is a good thing, up to a point. The need to "prove" EVERYTHING flies in the face of most religious belief... I believe it is best described in the last of the Seven Deadly Sins - pride. As for GAS... maybe that fits into the generic category of gluttony? We are all sinners to some degree. 😱

 

[MikeL]

Rational people don't get GAS, yet to some degree or another we all suffer from it.

Not so deep thought of the day: If we can rationalize GAS, does that make us rational people?

 

[Al Kaplan]

I'm going to put on my shaman robes, anoint myself with silver laden exhausted fixer, light some candles and some incense, perhaps smoke some sacred herbs. Then I think that I'll sacrifice a goat because I don't know where to find a virgin anymore. Religion can get so complicated! Maybe I should just hold off on the sacrifice until after I light the last Hanukah candle tonight?

And what if I guess right, that MY beliefs are the only correct beliefs? It'll be so lonely in heaven if I'm the only one with the correct beliefs. Being forced to spend an eternity chatting with nobody else but God. And what if She doesn't like me?

 

[Gumby]

I'm going to put on my shaman robes, anoint myself with silver laden exhausted fixer, light some candles and some incense, perhaps smoke some sacred herbs. Then I think that I'll sacrifice a goat because I don't know where to find a virgin anymore. Religion can get so complicated! Maybe I should just hold off on the sacrifice until after I light the last Hanukah candle tonight?

At this point I'd be happy just sacraficing a bottle of decent red wine. Want to join me? 😀

p.s. Happy Chanukah, Al.