antiquark
Derek Ross
Socialism doesn't mean mediocrity. Look at Norway. They're a socialist hellhole... yet their per-capita GDP is $10,000 higher than the US!
Congratulations to all Americans!
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Socialism doesn't mean mediocrity. Look at Norway. They're a socialist hellhole... yet their per-capita GDP is $10,000 higher than the US!
Insurance is a contract where the company agrees to pay for medical bills that could be very high, if you are in an accident or contract a deadly disease, so that you don't have to pay for it out of your own savings. This helps younger people who haven't had time to build up savings, and older people who want to protect what they have built...so they don't have to lose equity in their house, or savings, in the case of some unexpected illness.
Insurance is basically mathematics. For every person who needs major surgery or some other catastrophic care, there must be other people who are paying their premiums but haven't gotten ill. If the insurance company does the math right, the expenses for any one person's catastrophy are balanced out by the premiums from other people.
The health bill crashes this whole system. To ask insurance companies to cover a patient after an illness is diagnosed is to ask them to take on a known expense. Not only that: the insurance companies can't charge higher rates for those who are at higher risk of getting sick. So if insurance companies have to take on this expense and can't charge a higher rate for it, how are they going to pay for it? By raising everyone else's rates. This is social redistribution of wealth.
This isn't insurance.
The individual can longer choose what coverage he/she is willing to pay for. Everyone gets lumped into the same plan, created by some bureaucrat. If you get sick, you are stuck with benefits that are given out by bureaucracy, regardless of how much you put in. Everyone is part of the collective...and is subject to rationing when costs get out of control, or when treatments are deemed not cost effective.
When the insurance companies finally say 'uncle' and get out of this unprofitable mess, the public option follows by default.
This is welfare, not health care.
Insurance is basically mathematics. For every person who needs major surgery or some other catastrophic care, there must be other people who are paying their premiums but haven't gotten ill. If the insurance company does the math right, the expenses for any one person's catastrophy are balanced out by the premiums from other people.
The health bill crashes this whole system. To ask insurance companies to cover a patient after an illness is diagnosed is to ask them to take on a known expense. Not only that: the insurance companies can't charge higher rates for those who are at higher risk of getting sick. So if insurance companies have to take on this expense and can't charge a higher rate for it, how are they going to pay for it? By raising everyone else's rates. This is social redistribution of wealth.
This isn't insurance.
The individual can longer choose what coverage he/she is willing to pay for. Everyone gets lumped into the same plan, created by some bureaucrat. If you get sick, you are stuck with benefits that are given out by bureaucracy, regardless of how much you put in. Everyone is part of the collective...and is subject to rationing when costs get out of control, or when treatments are deemed not cost effective.
When the insurance companies finally say 'uncle' and get out of this unprofitable mess, the public option follows by default.
This is welfare, not health care.
Yes, how many people live in Norway, and what is their number one export?
antiquark
Derek Ross
There are a few countries that have small populations and produce lots of oil, yet they're not nice places to live. It's just that Norway was fortunate enough to choose a socialistic political system that maximizes their quality of life.
dfoo
Well-known
That's exactly why insurance is exactly the wrong model for health care. Health care is an essential service, like the fire department, roads and police.
Chriscrawfordphoto
Real Men Shoot Film.
The problem with the arguments used by guys like digitalintrigue is that they're not the true reason these guys oppose universal health care. I live in Indiana, and have spent most of my life here. Its probably the most conservative state in the USA. People here use these arguments about 'socialism causing unemployment', it being unconstitutional, etc in public but privately among family and friends they tell the truth: They just don't give a damn what happens to someone else.
The problem is here that everyone thinks he's a lord, when in fact 99% of the American people are peasants. It doesn't matter if you make $100,000 a year, if you are someone's employee, you're still a peasant who bows before the man in the manor on the hill. No matter how much you fools want to claim that you 'own' anything or that your 'hard work' earned you anything, the fact is everything you have can be taken away by the powerful by the simple act of laying you off. You may have some money invested, but eventually it WILL run out and you'll be the same poor peasant trash that you spit on day in and day out. I've seen a lot of these *******s humbled by cold reality here in Indiana and they quickly learn that their former friends, their families, NO ONE, cares if they live or die once the money's gone.
This is a sickness in our culture that needs to be cut out and destroyed or our nation will see its history end, soon. The European countries that the American nickel millionaire hates so much are old countries with centuries of history and experience behind them. They and their upper classes understand that if you do not take care of EVERYONE in society, you get what happened in France in 1789 and Russia in 1917:
The poor kill you.
Let me repeat in case you were not paying attention: The poor kill you.
This is not farfetched. The USA has the world's highest incarceration rate in the entire world. 2,500,000 Americans are behind bars. Most criminals are motivated by money, which they cannot obtain legitimately because jobs either do not exist, or they pay so little that one cannot live. Remove from our prisons all those whose crimes were economically motivated, and you'll have a much smaller prison population consisting mainly of very violent offenders who truly belong there.
It costs $30,000 a year to keep a man behind bars. Thats a living wage for a worker, and is more than twice what most can earn working a real job in our $7 an hour economy. I find it ironic that people in this country have no objection to the government taxing them and spending those tax dollars to lock up the poor while screaming to God in heaven above about the injustice of spending that money on the poor OUTSIDE of jail. Hypocrites.
The problem is here that everyone thinks he's a lord, when in fact 99% of the American people are peasants. It doesn't matter if you make $100,000 a year, if you are someone's employee, you're still a peasant who bows before the man in the manor on the hill. No matter how much you fools want to claim that you 'own' anything or that your 'hard work' earned you anything, the fact is everything you have can be taken away by the powerful by the simple act of laying you off. You may have some money invested, but eventually it WILL run out and you'll be the same poor peasant trash that you spit on day in and day out. I've seen a lot of these *******s humbled by cold reality here in Indiana and they quickly learn that their former friends, their families, NO ONE, cares if they live or die once the money's gone.
This is a sickness in our culture that needs to be cut out and destroyed or our nation will see its history end, soon. The European countries that the American nickel millionaire hates so much are old countries with centuries of history and experience behind them. They and their upper classes understand that if you do not take care of EVERYONE in society, you get what happened in France in 1789 and Russia in 1917:
The poor kill you.
Let me repeat in case you were not paying attention: The poor kill you.
This is not farfetched. The USA has the world's highest incarceration rate in the entire world. 2,500,000 Americans are behind bars. Most criminals are motivated by money, which they cannot obtain legitimately because jobs either do not exist, or they pay so little that one cannot live. Remove from our prisons all those whose crimes were economically motivated, and you'll have a much smaller prison population consisting mainly of very violent offenders who truly belong there.
It costs $30,000 a year to keep a man behind bars. Thats a living wage for a worker, and is more than twice what most can earn working a real job in our $7 an hour economy. I find it ironic that people in this country have no objection to the government taxing them and spending those tax dollars to lock up the poor while screaming to God in heaven above about the injustice of spending that money on the poor OUTSIDE of jail. Hypocrites.
One of my best friends is from Norway. He's also lived in the US in various places for a few years.
I was talking to him on chat and asked him a simple question:
What would Norway would be, if they were not socialist and Norway were run like things are in America (pre-Obama.) For reference, he's a pilot. His father is a doctor (gastroenterology and internal medicine); his mother a psychiatrist. His aunt, a surgeon.
I didn't realize how many replies this one question would generate. Here is the transcript.
---
I think we would've been a much bigger oil "specialist"
Without Statoil now, which actually means, "Government Oil, or GovOil"
I think would be much more competitive abroad. I think they could be bigger technological inventor than they are now
in norway the government owns the operator company
the company is on the stock exchange
but...
they outsource pretty much ALL operations on the oil rigs to guess who?!
AMERICAN service companies 😀
cus we don't have the technology to operate the drilling
they don't care, nor do they do enough to invest in research
even though we have a bunch of money
I definitely think a lot of norwegian would get off their asses
and start working harder for a change
about now 60% of the norwegian workforce is employed in the government
there are 400 accountants and clerks to 10 doctors at a hospital
where as in the US hospitals there are far fewer clerks and paper pushers
our system is incredibly inefficient
it employs people
like a communist country does
but it also makes people numb
and it doesn't push poeple to thrive
or seek out
there is no real sense of "danger"
that if you don't do your job, that you might get fired.
firing someone in Norway isn't easy, and IF the person gets fired, he receivs a red-carpet treatment
because of this scandinavian culture
a phenomenon known as "jantelov"
which basically is a social rule system
one rule being, "you shall not think you are anything"
another one is, "you shall not think you're better than anyone else"
and the bottom rule being, "everybody are equal"
to me this is the ONLY reason I moved to the US
they don't NEED to be driven
that's the thing
doing a **** job pays you almost 100k
hell you must now hold a community college degree to MOP FLOORS!!!!!
with a practical test
they just want to plod along
keep it safe
don't do anything scary like... god forbid RESEARCH
no risk taking
no individualism
don't stand up to the man
but they do love to write about americans talking about us....
hell it's insane
we ****ing INVENTED GSM technology
but norway had no desire to do anything with it so we GAVE it to Nokia and Ericsson
dad just laughs of our hospital system
and he's regarded one of the best diagnostics in northern norway
perhaps in norway
when nobody knows what's wrong, he knows
he said if this hospital was in the US, 80% of the staff would've been fired
and the hospital would've been through 250.000 malpractice suits
and those would be SERIOUS malpratice suits
not those bogus ones
but legit ones
but my aunt says the same, and she took her residency in the US
she says this, "Norwegian doctors don't know ****"
and her reason is simple
there are too few people in norway to specialize in anything
but they all say the same
it would be better if they bought hospital time in the US
and bought 10 Boeing 777s
and just flew people to the US every day
for medical attention
at least for advanced stuff
and just kept bare minimum hospitals here
there are god knows how many researchers in this country
what do they do?
NOTHING
and the funny thing, NOT wanting that life... where you just sit on your ass... and do nothing...
it's almost frowned upon
dad has trained in the US
mom managed to set up a partnership with Columbia University, and she's trying to get a partnership with Mayo
mom travels a lot to the US
and her, what are they called now, mentors? in her research were a few americans
she belives norwegian are limiting themselves to themselves
airtight reality
I'd like to see how the american people would react if Obama proposed GOVERNMENT TV!
if you own a TV, you HAVE to pay a 300-500 dollar yearly fee
no questions asked
own a TV? pay up!
and you CAN NOT get around it
BUT...
you get government tv....
which is commercial free....
there are channels that have commercials
but even they are somewhat subsidized
and they have to be, cus they can't compete with the government
a camera man in government TV makes about 100k after 10 years in service
it's considered norway's safest job....
what bothers me the most is, when a news organization like that is owned and funded by the governement
how can you trust that you get the real story
would they dare to oppose their government?
what if a party declared WAR against the bill?
and decided to campaign on removing this fee?
would it be fair campaign then?
e have what is called Tax-On-Tax
For example
you make 200.000 a year
since you make more than 100k a year, you now have to pay 50% tax
you're left with 100.000
that's the big ****ing thank you for you busting your ass off in college to earn that money
you decide to spend some of that money.....
you buy a house....
you take up a loan...
and you pay the interest and the morg
now... when you're 70 years old and you've paid off your loans
they now charge you a "fortune tax"
since you don't have loans, you gotta pay extra tax
when you die and your daughter gets your house
she has to pay inheritance tax
and from the 100k a year that you make....
you pay 25% sales tax on EVERY ****ing thing you buy....
----
Interesting perspective.
I was talking to him on chat and asked him a simple question:
What would Norway would be, if they were not socialist and Norway were run like things are in America (pre-Obama.) For reference, he's a pilot. His father is a doctor (gastroenterology and internal medicine); his mother a psychiatrist. His aunt, a surgeon.
I didn't realize how many replies this one question would generate. Here is the transcript.
---
I think we would've been a much bigger oil "specialist"
Without Statoil now, which actually means, "Government Oil, or GovOil"
I think would be much more competitive abroad. I think they could be bigger technological inventor than they are now
in norway the government owns the operator company
the company is on the stock exchange
but...
they outsource pretty much ALL operations on the oil rigs to guess who?!
AMERICAN service companies 😀
cus we don't have the technology to operate the drilling
they don't care, nor do they do enough to invest in research
even though we have a bunch of money
I definitely think a lot of norwegian would get off their asses
and start working harder for a change
about now 60% of the norwegian workforce is employed in the government
there are 400 accountants and clerks to 10 doctors at a hospital
where as in the US hospitals there are far fewer clerks and paper pushers
our system is incredibly inefficient
it employs people
like a communist country does
but it also makes people numb
and it doesn't push poeple to thrive
or seek out
there is no real sense of "danger"
that if you don't do your job, that you might get fired.
firing someone in Norway isn't easy, and IF the person gets fired, he receivs a red-carpet treatment
because of this scandinavian culture
a phenomenon known as "jantelov"
which basically is a social rule system
one rule being, "you shall not think you are anything"
another one is, "you shall not think you're better than anyone else"
and the bottom rule being, "everybody are equal"
to me this is the ONLY reason I moved to the US
they don't NEED to be driven
that's the thing
doing a **** job pays you almost 100k
hell you must now hold a community college degree to MOP FLOORS!!!!!
with a practical test
they just want to plod along
keep it safe
don't do anything scary like... god forbid RESEARCH
no risk taking
no individualism
don't stand up to the man
but they do love to write about americans talking about us....
hell it's insane
we ****ing INVENTED GSM technology
but norway had no desire to do anything with it so we GAVE it to Nokia and Ericsson
dad just laughs of our hospital system
and he's regarded one of the best diagnostics in northern norway
perhaps in norway
when nobody knows what's wrong, he knows
he said if this hospital was in the US, 80% of the staff would've been fired
and the hospital would've been through 250.000 malpractice suits
and those would be SERIOUS malpratice suits
not those bogus ones
but legit ones
but my aunt says the same, and she took her residency in the US
she says this, "Norwegian doctors don't know ****"
and her reason is simple
there are too few people in norway to specialize in anything
but they all say the same
it would be better if they bought hospital time in the US
and bought 10 Boeing 777s
and just flew people to the US every day
for medical attention
at least for advanced stuff
and just kept bare minimum hospitals here
there are god knows how many researchers in this country
what do they do?
NOTHING
and the funny thing, NOT wanting that life... where you just sit on your ass... and do nothing...
it's almost frowned upon
dad has trained in the US
mom managed to set up a partnership with Columbia University, and she's trying to get a partnership with Mayo
mom travels a lot to the US
and her, what are they called now, mentors? in her research were a few americans
she belives norwegian are limiting themselves to themselves
airtight reality
I'd like to see how the american people would react if Obama proposed GOVERNMENT TV!
if you own a TV, you HAVE to pay a 300-500 dollar yearly fee
no questions asked
own a TV? pay up!
and you CAN NOT get around it
BUT...
you get government tv....
which is commercial free....
there are channels that have commercials
but even they are somewhat subsidized
and they have to be, cus they can't compete with the government
a camera man in government TV makes about 100k after 10 years in service
it's considered norway's safest job....
what bothers me the most is, when a news organization like that is owned and funded by the governement
how can you trust that you get the real story
would they dare to oppose their government?
what if a party declared WAR against the bill?
and decided to campaign on removing this fee?
would it be fair campaign then?
e have what is called Tax-On-Tax
For example
you make 200.000 a year
since you make more than 100k a year, you now have to pay 50% tax
you're left with 100.000
that's the big ****ing thank you for you busting your ass off in college to earn that money
you decide to spend some of that money.....
you buy a house....
you take up a loan...
and you pay the interest and the morg
now... when you're 70 years old and you've paid off your loans
they now charge you a "fortune tax"
since you don't have loans, you gotta pay extra tax
when you die and your daughter gets your house
she has to pay inheritance tax
and from the 100k a year that you make....
you pay 25% sales tax on EVERY ****ing thing you buy....
----
Interesting perspective.
Last edited by a moderator:
Chriscrawfordphoto
Real Men Shoot Film.
You're friend, DI, is just what the USA needs, another peasant who wants to act like a lord. He's no better than anyone else, he's a wagearner..a worker. What pisses him off is that pilots probably make more money here working for our bankrupt airlines and he wants in on it...yet his country has little or no poverty or crime, certainly nothing like our country has. He's not suffering, he can work hard if he wants and what others do is really not his concern, he's just another peasant.
More:
and from the 100k a year that you make....
you pay 25% sales tax on EVERY ****ing thing you buy....
so in essence, you only make 75.000
now.... gasoline has 90%, an expense that is around 3000, compared to the 500 that it COULD be
you pay an extra CAR tax
don't let em fool you
cus you DO pay sales tax too
but the car tax is usually 50-80% of the cars value
a Ford Mustang V6 costs 27.000 USD in the US
In Norway it costs 130.000 USD
a BMW that is cleaner, leaner, pollutes less and uses less gas pr mile can still cost more in taxes and fees because of the insane rules we have
and then you have toilet seat tax
no joke
there are 3000 people employed at the IRS who every year revise our extra tax system
it costs the government 400 MILLION USD a year to keep these people in service
they could've put a flat rate tax, fired the people, saved the people and the government a lot of money
but they don't
in essence
when you make 200k a year
in reality you make 20k
And I'm not sure what for
cus our roads are the worst in europe
Mercedes Benz said that the roads in Norway are so bad that they have 50% more wear and tear on their cars that are on norwegian roads compared to the rest of the world.
even africa has better roads
our schools are among the worst in the world
kids get asthma cus the buildings are so old
the public transportation is a joke
yet they force the eco taxes on us... with no viable option
and it's all made to serve the idiots in Oslo
they could afford a new opera house in oslo, cost? 1 billion dollars
new ski-jump arena in oslo, 300m
but you can't play hockey north of trondheim
it's ****ed up
and I'm sure it's ****ed up because the government has too much control
they finance the festivals
they finance music
they finance art
they finance everything
you can't do **** without them
and you sure as hell can't compete with then either
but nobody cares
as long as we win gold medals in the olympics people don't give a ****
we've got our oil so **** the rest
we're the richest country in the world
and the best
welcome to norway
and from the 100k a year that you make....
you pay 25% sales tax on EVERY ****ing thing you buy....
so in essence, you only make 75.000
now.... gasoline has 90%, an expense that is around 3000, compared to the 500 that it COULD be
you pay an extra CAR tax
don't let em fool you
cus you DO pay sales tax too
but the car tax is usually 50-80% of the cars value
a Ford Mustang V6 costs 27.000 USD in the US
In Norway it costs 130.000 USD
a BMW that is cleaner, leaner, pollutes less and uses less gas pr mile can still cost more in taxes and fees because of the insane rules we have
and then you have toilet seat tax
no joke
there are 3000 people employed at the IRS who every year revise our extra tax system
it costs the government 400 MILLION USD a year to keep these people in service
they could've put a flat rate tax, fired the people, saved the people and the government a lot of money
but they don't
in essence
when you make 200k a year
in reality you make 20k
And I'm not sure what for
cus our roads are the worst in europe
Mercedes Benz said that the roads in Norway are so bad that they have 50% more wear and tear on their cars that are on norwegian roads compared to the rest of the world.
even africa has better roads
our schools are among the worst in the world
kids get asthma cus the buildings are so old
the public transportation is a joke
yet they force the eco taxes on us... with no viable option
and it's all made to serve the idiots in Oslo
they could afford a new opera house in oslo, cost? 1 billion dollars
new ski-jump arena in oslo, 300m
but you can't play hockey north of trondheim
it's ****ed up
and I'm sure it's ****ed up because the government has too much control
they finance the festivals
they finance music
they finance art
they finance everything
you can't do **** without them
and you sure as hell can't compete with then either
but nobody cares
as long as we win gold medals in the olympics people don't give a ****
we've got our oil so **** the rest
we're the richest country in the world
and the best
welcome to norway
Last edited by a moderator:
This is just plain wrong. Just flat out wrong. Not to mention, insulting.
What we care about is growing the pie. It's not a matter of the pie being so big, get your piece, and take some from someone else's piece. It's about GROWING THE PIE.
It's not a matter of taking from the rich and giving to the poor. It's about establishing a stable, growing economy so everyone has the opportunity! That's the goal. The fact is, not everyone has the motivation or the drive to take advantage of the opportunity. This is reality.
There will always be people that have more than others. Some people have more drive, some have more talent. As much as I'd like to be a point guard in the NBA, it just ain't gonna happen. Should I lobby for some socialist program to take 8" of height from Kobe Bryant and give it to me instead? Heh.
---
Yes, it's all pure lunacy isn't it.
remphoto
Established
The US Constitution does not provide for healthcare as a right as it does the other protection items you listed. It is only because the US Congress, against the clear will of a majority of the people, rammed it through using a series of manipulations and lies which may ultimately be ruled unconstitutional. The poorly crafted, complex bill is sure to produce unintended negative consequences. The check and balance will come in November when the voters get their say on what Congress has perpetrated upon them.
No offense intended, but it is interesting to listen to those of you who are not US Citizens and have no vote armchair quarterback this US issue. Most of you have not the proper context to understand the American perspective and our views on liberty and freedom. Nor do you understand or affirm American Exceptionalism and the role this country plays as a Superpower. If you are ok with trusting your large governments, paying high taxes and the tradeoffs in personal liberties that come with that then so be it. For me, I like living in the USA as it was crafted by our founding fathers and will continue doing whatever I can to resist the transition to a socialistic state.🙂
Ditto. 🙂
(My last word, I've used up my quota.)
(My last word, I've used up my quota.)
Chriscrawfordphoto
Real Men Shoot Film.
No one said about taking from the rich, its about ensuring everyone gets what they earn. The rich have been stealing from the poor for decades now. If you employ someone at $8 an hour, you're paying him 1/2 to 1/3 the actual cost of him along surviving. When 50% of the jobs pay that little, the worker has no choice. We're seeing now where university grads are being forced to take these jobs because THAT'S ALL THERE ARE. I find it insulting when conservatives tell me that the poor deserve to be kept in subjection. My historical lesson is correct, try and deny it. The poor WILL kill you if it comes to them starving or killing you to live. I do not relish the idea of revolutionary violence; I would prefer a civil society where every man has basic rights to live, and that means an income sufficient to survive. Unfortunately, the American 'nickel milionare' will keep thinking he's a nobleman who can keep spitting on his fellow peasant.
Chriscrawfordphoto
Real Men Shoot Film.
I suggest you study your history. The founding father's wanted nothing to do with a country controlled by big business, a country where most of the people are kept in feudal subjection by the few. This country is a massive failure if you compare it to what the founders wanted. I still think he should beg Her Majesty, Queen Elizabeth to take us back.
remphoto
Established
Chris,It is easy to make big business, big oil, etc. a target but I've yet to see any real proof of clandestine ways it runs the government. I dont think the people working for these companies and their suppliers don't see themselves as serfs. The serfs in society are those dependent on government largess for support.
Amazon.com: The Road to Serfdom: Text and Documents--The Definitive Edition (The Collected Works of F. A. Hayek) (9780226320557): F. A. Hayek, Bruce Caldwell: Books
http://bit.ly/9EMa8f
http://bit.ly/9EMa8f
Roger Hicks
Veteran
It's even more interesting to listen to those who are US citizens, and are open-minded enough to think that there are things that the USA could learn from the rest of the world. People like my wife.
It's also interesting to listen to those who have no experience of anything except the US, when they run down Europe.
Indeed, sane people don't understand American Exceptionalism, because there's nothing to understand: it's a fantasy. ANY exceptionalism is dangerous nonsense, because it's the starting point for a Master Race and a Thousand-Year Reich.
US citizenship is nothing special. After 5 years living in the USA I decided that I didn't want it, and indeed that I'd rather live in Europe; so I never bothered with taking up US citizenship, and moved back to Europe.
Cheers,
R.
kully
Happy Snapper
'remphoto', 'digitalintrigue' - I have no desire to change your views. For me it's interesting in the same way as watching a documentary on any other country, it's so alien to what I think that it makes for entertainment.
You see, I hear you on one side and then see the Red Cross having to go over there and give people medical care in sports stadiums. And. I think - wtf!?! These geezers are talking about freedom, liberty and markets while their fellow countrymen are getting shafted.
You see, I hear you on one side and then see the Red Cross having to go over there and give people medical care in sports stadiums. And. I think - wtf!?! These geezers are talking about freedom, liberty and markets while their fellow countrymen are getting shafted.
Roger Hicks
Veteran
Dear Kully,
That sums it up perfectly.
Remember the line that Rattigan puts into T.E.'s mouth in Ross? "It's a joke. Not the kind you laugh at. Just a joke."
Cheers,
R.
Dave Wilkinson
Veteran
Messrs Hicks and Kully - the hit squad is enroute!
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