radi(c)al_cam
Well-known
Friedrich August v.Hayek
Friedrich August v.Hayek
digitalintrigue, have you met v.Hayek or one of his students?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Friedrich_August_von_Hayek#Freiburg_and_Salzburg
"He became professor at the University of Salzburg from 1969 to 1977; he then returned to Freiburg, where he spent the rest of his days. When Hayek left Salzburg in 1977, he wrote that, "I made a mistake in moving to Salzburg". The economics department was small and the library facilities were inadequate."
Concerning Salzburg University, my wife and I are quite good informed, and the facts are:
Hayek was mediocre as a teacher and neglected his chair duties, PERIOD.
Friedrich August v.Hayek
digitalintrigue, have you met v.Hayek or one of his students?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Friedrich_August_von_Hayek#Freiburg_and_Salzburg
"He became professor at the University of Salzburg from 1969 to 1977; he then returned to Freiburg, where he spent the rest of his days. When Hayek left Salzburg in 1977, he wrote that, "I made a mistake in moving to Salzburg". The economics department was small and the library facilities were inadequate."
Concerning Salzburg University, my wife and I are quite good informed, and the facts are:
Hayek was mediocre as a teacher and neglected his chair duties, PERIOD.
dfoo
Well-known
You know what is hilarious? Last time I checked my taxes were not much higher than my American friends, but yet my healthcare is "free". I also don't think the Canadian government is bigger than the US government, and what personal liberties have I sacrificed exactly?
Chriscrawfordphoto
Real Men Shoot Film.
Business doesn't run the government clandestinely, they do it openly. They donate millions to politicians (bribes, perfectly legal too!) and the politicians do what business wants. Like keeping minimum wage at starvation levels, allowing free trade to destroy the prosperity of 90% of the American people, allowing mining and logging on public lands for virtually no payment to the government for those valuable resources.
As for serfs, how people see themselves is not relevant. Most Americans are drooling imbeciles who live lives based on self-deception, fantasy, and lies. Like I said, most are peasants and they think they're dukes. If you live off of work, rather than investments, you are a serf. Its that simple. Always has been and always will be.
Olsen
Well-known
There is many examples of this. But few of them surface on the front page of the big media. There can be no doubt that the US oil industry was the motivating factor behind the invasion of Iraq. To take one example. Hunt Oil and Somalia is another. To get to the bottom of such instances you have to read thick books.
Indeed, this health care bill has been fought against by a mighty one trillion dollar industry. If it hadn't been for this huge industry prospering from conditions like they have been, Americans would have had reasonable priced health care system for all a long time ago.
Don't forget that these politicians are paid by somebody. The health care industry is a huge provider of political sponsoring and lobbying.
Olsen
Well-known
'One of my best friends is from Norway. He's also lived in the US in various places for a few years.
I was talking to him on chat and asked him a simple question:
What would Norway would be, if they were not socialist and Norway were run like things are in America (pre-Obama.) For reference, he's a pilot. His father is a doctor (gastroenterology and internal medicine); his mother a psychiatrist. His aunt, a surgeon.
I didn't realize how many replies this one question would generate. Here is the transcript.
---
I think we would've been a much bigger oil "specialist"
Without Statoil now, which actually means, "Government Oil, or GovOil"
I think would be much more competitive abroad. I think they could be bigger technological inventor than they are now
in norway the government owns the operator company
the company is on the stock exchange
but...
they outsource pretty much ALL operations on the oil rigs to guess who?!
AMERICAN service companies
cus we don't have the technology to operate the drilling
they don't care, nor do they do enough to invest in research
even though we have a bunch of money
I definitely think a lot of norwegian would get off their asses
and start working harder for a change
about now 60% of the norwegian workforce is employed in the government
there are 400 accountants and clerks to 10 doctors at a hospital
where as in the US hospitals there are far fewer clerks and paper pushers
our system is incredibly inefficient
it employs people
like a communist country does
but it also makes people numb
and it doesn't push poeple to thrive
or seek out
there is no real sense of "danger"
that if you don't do your job, that you might get fired.
firing someone in Norway isn't easy, and IF the person gets fired, he receivs a red-carpet treatment
because of this scandinavian culture
a phenomenon known as "jantelov"
which basically is a social rule system
one rule being, "you shall not think you are anything"
another one is, "you shall not think you're better than anyone else"
and the bottom rule being, "everybody are equal"
to me this is the ONLY reason I moved to the US
they don't NEED to be driven
that's the thing
doing a **** job pays you almost 100k
hell you must now hold a community college degree to MOP FLOORS!!!!!
with a practical test
they just want to plod along
keep it safe
don't do anything scary like... god forbid RESEARCH
no risk taking
no individualism
don't stand up to the man
but they do love to write about americans talking about us....
hell it's insane
we ****ing INVENTED GSM technology
but norway had no desire to do anything with it so we GAVE it to Nokia and Ericsson
dad just laughs of our hospital system
and he's regarded one of the best diagnostics in northern norway
perhaps in norway
when nobody knows what's wrong, he knows
he said if this hospital was in the US, 80% of the staff would've been fired
and the hospital would've been through 250.000 malpractice suits
and those would be SERIOUS malpratice suits
not those bogus ones
but legit ones
but my aunt says the same, and she took her residency in the US
she says this, "Norwegian doctors don't know ****"
and her reason is simple
there are too few people in norway to specialize in anything
but they all say the same
it would be better if they bought hospital time in the US
and bought 10 Boeing 777s
and just flew people to the US every day
for medical attention
at least for advanced stuff
and just kept bare minimum hospitals here
there are god knows how many researchers in this country
what do they do?
NOTHING
and the funny thing, NOT wanting that life... where you just sit on your ass... and do nothing...
it's almost frowned upon
dad has trained in the US
mom managed to set up a partnership with Columbia University, and she's trying to get a partnership with Mayo
mom travels a lot to the US
and her, what are they called now, mentors? in her research were a few americans
she belives norwegian are limiting themselves to themselves
airtight reality
I'd like to see how the american people would react if Obama proposed GOVERNMENT TV!
if you own a TV, you HAVE to pay a 300-500 dollar yearly fee
no questions asked
own a TV? pay up!
and you CAN NOT get around it
BUT...
you get government tv....
which is commercial free....
there are channels that have commercials
but even they are somewhat subsidized
and they have to be, cus they can't compete with the government
a camera man in government TV makes about 100k after 10 years in service
it's considered norway's safest job....
what bothers me the most is, when a news organization like that is owned and funded by the governement
how can you trust that you get the real story
would they dare to oppose their government?
what if a party declared WAR against the bill?
and decided to campaign on removing this fee?
would it be fair campaign then?
e have what is called Tax-On-Tax
For example
you make 200.000 a year
since you make more than 100k a year, you now have to pay 50% tax
you're left with 100.000
that's the big ****ing thank you for you busting your ass off in college to earn that money
you decide to spend some of that money.....
you buy a house....
you take up a loan...
and you pay the interest and the morg
now... when you're 70 years old and you've paid off your loans
they now charge you a "fortune tax"
since you don't have loans, you gotta pay extra tax
when you die and your daughter gets your house
she has to pay inheritance tax
and from the 100k a year that you make....
you pay 25% sales tax on EVERY ****ing thing you buy....
----
Interesting perspective.
What a lot of crap! Ha, ha!
We pay 20% sales tax on just about everything. Except for cars, alcohol and tobacco. We do have a heavy tax burden on our oil industry. That's true. The US president who tried to implement a similar system drove pass the Grassy knoll in Dallas.
My neighbours are Americans. They can't afford to move home, they say. Not only because of high health care costs, but also because our public pension system here in Norway is so lavish. - They will move home when they retire, though.
antiquark
Derek Ross
Yes the pie has grown. GDP has doubled (DOUBLED!) from 1994-2008! link. But that's another right wing myth, that the rising tide will raise all boats.
If that was true, then everyone should have seen a doubling of income, right? But it hasn't happened. Gee, I wonder where all that extra money went?
dmr
Registered Abuser
One thing I have enjoyed and learned from here, from reading this thread and filtering out the fresh ideas from the same-old ad-nauseam talking points, is the views that Europeans and other non-Statesiders have about this and related issues. It is eye-opening. It's stuff you don't get on CNN.
Yes, I admit that many US citizens have a very myopic view of other lands and other cultures, but I daresay that this is also the case in those other lands as well.
Roger Hicks
Veteran
One thing I have enjoyed and learned from here, from reading this thread and filtering out the fresh ideas from the same-old ad-nauseam talking points, is the views that Europeans and other non-Statesiders have about this and related issues. It is eye-opening. It's stuff you don't get on CNN.
Yes, I admit that many US citizens have a very myopic view of other lands and other cultures, but I daresay that this is also the case in those other lands as well.
I agree 100%. Certainly, a lot of ideas are (to be generous) 'recycled' in such threads, but once you strain out the dross and the plain malice, there are things to be learned.
When the same idea is presented a dozen different ways by a dozen different people, it gives you a feeling for what people really think, rather than what CNN (or any other news medium) says they think. And when a dozen other people present the opposite viewpoint in a dozen different ways, you begin to understand what democracy actually means -- and usually, it doesn't mean saying "I'm right, you're wrong, and that's an end to it." One may think that, but it's (usually) interesting and (sometimes) productive to engage others in dialogue.
Cheers,
R.
Chris, a lot of interesting comments there, but with regards to minimum wage, how much is good enough? Give me a number.
And how exactly does business keep minimum wage down? All I hear are politicians who talk about raising it. If business is truly in the politician's pocket (due to 'legal bribes' and 'millions in campaign donations' as you state) please explain how business lobbies politicians to keep it low, while those same politicians make talking points about how it must be raised.
Is there a 1:1 relationship between personal income and GDP? Or are there perhaps individual factors that perhaps have some bearing?
Indeed, where DID all that money go??? It certainly didn't go to help Medicare or Social Security...
dfoo
Well-known
Isn't it obvious? It went into the pockets of the top 1%.
Sparrow
Veteran
One thing I have enjoyed and learned from here, from reading this thread and filtering out the fresh ideas from the same-old ad-nauseam talking points, is the views that Europeans and other non-Statesiders have about this and related issues. It is eye-opening. It's stuff you don't get on CNN.
Yes, I admit that many US citizens have a very myopic view of other lands and other cultures, but I daresay that this is also the case in those other lands as well.
I started visiting the US and Canada in the early 90s, (sales trips sadly) and I think I had a similar revelation, I came away with a much better understanding of the shear size of the place and huge diversity of the population. I don’t believe Europeans understand the internal complexity of the US that well, we tend to think you are all the same
Also you aren’t that well served by your news services I’ve noticed how little foreign news gets on TV compared to the UK and Europe 50 or 60% of our news will be from overseas way more than the US, so it’s easy to see how there are misunderstandings.
kully
Happy Snapper
Perhaps the premise is false?
Oh, no, can't be, that wouldn't fit the narrative.
Oh, no, can't be, that wouldn't fit the narrative.
OK got any data to back that up? Especially since it must be obvious, please produce it.
Still waiting on an answer to the other question.
Spoks
Well-known
This friend of yours can have no education. I jsut showed you a graph of the Norwegian tax level which has been constant, more or less since 1970 at 43- 44% of GDP.
Do you understand what that means?
That means that the sum of taxes of the total GDP is 44%. In USA it is 25% - but then you don't get all that public service included, - as 'free' health care, pensions, education for your kids through university etc.
Most music festivals are privately funded, but might get 10.000 $ support from a local government. not the state. The Norwegian Public Lottery (not the State, your friend does not seem to understand what is happening around him) is heavily subsidizing the Oslo Opera and other up street cultural events. So, the cheapest place to see & hear Placido Domingo is in Oslo. Air fair from NY included.
That means that the number of public employees are far less than some 60%. More like 38 - 40%
Statoil is a private company. It's stock can be bought on the NYSE. The Norwegian government do have a share or two. That's smart, isn't it? Our pension fund owns about 1,5% of all the publicly noted shares - in the world...
Everything is outsourced in the oil industry. But not only to American companies. We have negotiated the oil rights with other OECD nations and are obliged to also use their services.
Norway has come on top on several living standard studies made by The World Bank, UN and OECD. Together with Sweden, Finland, Denmark etc. High on this list is Cananda. USA is far down on the list.
How can this be?
But we do send patients to foreign hospitals!
The Swedes who have a public health care system like us have a very efficient bypass heart operation facility that is often used by us.
We even send Norwegian/Pakistani to Pakistani hospitals because they are specialists on certain inherited deceases which is typical among Pakistanis etc. Why we are not using US health facilities can only be that they are not competitive or don't have the expertise we seek.
That Norwegian roads are bad, that I can agree upon. Not very unlike the poor quality of - American roads. The problem that both Norwegians and Americans have to face is that we have to keep up a good infrastructure with a small - relatively speaking, population.
About your friend's education, again: you must urge him to get his school money back. 'The 3000 people working for our IRS' (the real figure will be more like 1000 - it's all computerized today) costs 400 million US$...? These figures are wildly exagerated. But we practically have a flat tax! Income below 12.000 $ is tax free, though. It's when you buy things you pay taxes over here.
If you have noticed, the US politicians are looking at increasing the VAT/sales tax in USA. Even the tiny 25% of GDP you pay in taxes are all too little. Much due to an all too expensive health care cost (and extravagant defence). With the US public dept running into figures impossible to pay back the only future I see for Americans are, read my lips:
Higher taxes!
With an interest of only 1,5% - 3% of GDP will go to serving this huge debt. Tell that to the daydreamers at the tea parties. It is only one way out of the US financial chaos: Pay more taxes!
Sure, there is a lot of complaints on poor building quality of many local schools and collages particularly here in Oslo where we have a conservative local government. I suspect that they let the schools run down so they (friends of the Conservative Party) can buy them cheap and sell them on again with a profit.
But collage is (practically) free here in Norway! How does that compare to USA? As long as you are qualified your education through university is free.
Compare!
Sure, there is many things that makes USA a pleasant place to live. But not when it comes to government, health care, law and order, education, pensions and other 'public' services that we take for granted.
What makes USA pleasant is the climate, the beautiful scenery and the nice people....
Sparrow
Veteran
OK got any data to back that up? Especially since it must be obvious, please produce it.
Still waiting on an answer to the other question.
I thought that was the whole point of free market capitalism, what other outcome could there be?
The whole point of free market capitalism is for all GDP growth to go into the pockets of the top 1%? Is that what you are saying? If not, please clarify.
Roger Hicks
Veteran
This is one of those wonderfully, deceptively simple questions.
As far as I can see, there are three possibilities.
One is that the figure is in fact meaningless: not impossible, especially after taking inflation into account.
The second is that all of the money was reinvested in both private and public infrastructure. This does not look outstandingly likely.
The third is that even after allowing for the first two (and inflation), the rich did, indeed, do rather well out of this doubling of GDP. What you'd need to do is to look at income differentials (top 5-10% vs. bottom 5-10%) across the period.
Cheers,
R.
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dfoo
Well-known
Are you serious? http://tinyurl.com/yfsfvmb
Here are the first few articles I found:
http://ampedstatus.com/during-econo...400-richest-americans-increased-by-30-billion
http://www.rollingstone.com/politics/story/12699486/paul_krugman_on_the_great_wealth_transfer/print
http://www.romow.com/news-blog/richest-americans-control-more-wealth-than-ever/
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