Rodchenko
Olympian
But are we not straying off the topic and into political argument itself, when the question is about how to depict life in a committed way, but of the right.
I've struggled to think of how to go about this, and not just because I'm a socialist. It is a difficulty. I've been coming to the conclusion that photography might be inherently a socially progressive medium, but seeing the ads and copy in a women's magazine partially disabused me of that.
This last week has been a prime opportunity for conservative or right wing photography, but I haven't seen anything in the press which convinced me it could be done. There was some fine photography of the military pomp, and the old-fashioned (i won't say traditional, given the massive breach of protocol) fol-de-rol. There was an attempt at turning Thatcher into something iconic or heroic, which Mau have had a measure of success. But these things are in isolation. I think the effectiveness of photography as a progressive medium is in bringing images to people, and raising awareness of social issues. In addition, it works well by contrasting different aspects. A photo of a grand personage in fancy attire may be conservative, but, if you take the Picture Post style of putting pomp side by side with the harsh reality of poverty, it looks uncaring and emphasises the excess.
The same photos of the streets show the adoring crowds, or else the sparse nature of the few attending, interspersed with protesters, depending on your outlook.
So, with an ideal opportunity for the conservatives to dominate the visual agenda, as they have the written and broadcast scripts, they don't seem to have been able to take the opportunity, which probably reflects on the nature of the problem.
I've struggled to think of how to go about this, and not just because I'm a socialist. It is a difficulty. I've been coming to the conclusion that photography might be inherently a socially progressive medium, but seeing the ads and copy in a women's magazine partially disabused me of that.
This last week has been a prime opportunity for conservative or right wing photography, but I haven't seen anything in the press which convinced me it could be done. There was some fine photography of the military pomp, and the old-fashioned (i won't say traditional, given the massive breach of protocol) fol-de-rol. There was an attempt at turning Thatcher into something iconic or heroic, which Mau have had a measure of success. But these things are in isolation. I think the effectiveness of photography as a progressive medium is in bringing images to people, and raising awareness of social issues. In addition, it works well by contrasting different aspects. A photo of a grand personage in fancy attire may be conservative, but, if you take the Picture Post style of putting pomp side by side with the harsh reality of poverty, it looks uncaring and emphasises the excess.
The same photos of the streets show the adoring crowds, or else the sparse nature of the few attending, interspersed with protesters, depending on your outlook.
So, with an ideal opportunity for the conservatives to dominate the visual agenda, as they have the written and broadcast scripts, they don't seem to have been able to take the opportunity, which probably reflects on the nature of the problem.
Roger Hicks
Veteran
Elegantly phrased, and thanks for returning the thread to the question of what can the left or the right do photographically; and I do like the argument presented in the highlight.
What, though, is so specifically right-wing about the magazines you mention? I may have a partial answer: Norman Rockwell, whose pictures are to the American Dream what Capa, Chim and Taro were to the Spanish Republican cause: a substantially uncritical representation of what some people wanted to believe.
The difference, of course, was that Rockwell could make up whatever he wanted. Photographers are limited to what they can get in front of their camera. Even (allegedly) staged pictures are seldom as propagandistic as paintings and drawings.
Cheers,
R.
Rodchenko
Olympian
That's precisely what I was getting at.
paulfish4570
Veteran
as ever, the medium is the message ... 
charjohncarter
Veteran
as ever, the medium is the message ...
Yes. But there are many places where photography can be presented that represent a Libertarian view. Example, my sister-in-law is presently passing from cancer. I have not been able to post much because my wife and I have been driving constantly to LA to visit and help her and her young son. As we live six hours away we can't be there on a daily basis.
She was a non religious member of a Bunko group that was associated with a church. Those wonderful women have filled the space that we haven't been able to fill. So here is an area where the OP could view a conservative photographic opportunity.
fdarnell
Well-known
I don't think so. The problem is that conservative thought is basically in support of the constitution, bill of rights etc. Since freedom of speech is one of the founding principals, then I would think whatever people want to photograph and express, it should be their freedom too. In many ways, I think the conservative and liberal labels are actually reversed.
It could surely be said that conservative values were shown in the now famous photo of the guy with missing legs and the guy in the cowboy hat. Selfless support of a fellow human in need, especially lifesaving support, clearly documents many of the conservative principals. The fact that it can be shown in full detail, without edit, also reflects those same values.
So perhaps these things are sometimes right under our noses but we can't see them.
Regarding the minimum wage issue, it's true that the initial response is all about capitalistic greed etc., but if you have ever owned a business, you will have a much different view. I know of one very wealthy capitalist who hires a man to do manual labor, pays him as a 1099 employee. I've seen this individual go from being on drugs and on the street to at least off the street, but still with drugs. However, he now has some self-respect because he is able to work and honest day for an honest wage.
So perhaps environmental portraits of these kinds of individuals, who are making a life-turn around as a result of job hiring, even at minimum wage, would reflect those values.
The other thing is that if this is done correctly, the values illustrated will transcend the political boundaries.
Roger Hicks
Veteran
Highlight 1: Only in the United States. There are conservatives in many other countries -- one of the main parties in the UK is even named the Conservative and Unionist Party -- so "support of the constitution, bill of rights etc." must necessarily be a woefully inadequate definition.
Highlight 2: Surely these are human values. I am sure you would not wish to say that only conservatives do this sort of thing.
Highlight 3: How? I can't quite visualize the kind of environmental portrait you're talking about. In any case, the caption is everything. Is the person hired the grateful recipient of the rich man's kindness or an honest but downtrodden man prepared to take any job, no matter how poorly paid or degrading, because that's all he can get?
Cheers,
R.
Roger Hicks
Veteran
To drag it back to photography, perhaps we could illustrate this 1099/W2 controversy with a series of pictures of the endless private tax preparation agencies such as H&R Block that appear all over the United States. US income tax is not particularly hard to figure out, even for a freelance photographer and writer: I lived in California for five years and Frances still has to file a 1040 (individual income tax form) even though she's not lived in the US for over 20 years. WHY are there so many tax preparation agencies? And, for that matter, why on earth do non-residents have to file taxes? No other major country requires this.
So yes: photographing tax preparation agencies might be a legitimate and doable right-wing photo project. "Get government off our backs."
Or of course it could be a left-wing project documenting how privatization invades every aspect of life in what the French call 'Anglo-Saxon' countries: because, of course, H&R Block isn't a government agency. In France, the local tax office helped me at first, even showing me exactly how to fill in the forms. Most of the IRS people I met or dealt with in the USA were equally willing to be helpful -- but there were so few of them that they didn't have the time.
Cheers,
R.
So yes: photographing tax preparation agencies might be a legitimate and doable right-wing photo project. "Get government off our backs."
Or of course it could be a left-wing project documenting how privatization invades every aspect of life in what the French call 'Anglo-Saxon' countries: because, of course, H&R Block isn't a government agency. In France, the local tax office helped me at first, even showing me exactly how to fill in the forms. Most of the IRS people I met or dealt with in the USA were equally willing to be helpful -- but there were so few of them that they didn't have the time.
Cheers,
R.
Yes, please! While leaving behind incendiary phrases and strongly partisan comments, on any position. Political and/or economic comments only in the context of illustration through photography, please. This can be a delicate balance, and your attention to this is helpful.
charjohncarter
Veteran
My posts which responded to this post has been deleted, but I simply stated that Roger and I differ.
Sparrow
Veteran
While I also disagree with you on the matter we are not now discussing, I agree wholeheartedly with your earlier comments regarding deletions.
paulfish4570
Veteran
deletions? i wondered why this thread had ceased to grow. have any progressive posts been deleted?
nemo2
Established
Quit your recent job, get one below the minimum wage level and make the photography essay about your gaining the self-respect. If you won´t have to trade your camera for food, off course.
Roger Hicks
Veteran
Quite a lot of posts on both sides of the political spectrum have been deleted; to the extent, I assume, that many people have decided it's not worth bothering.deletions? i wondered why this thread had ceased to grow. have any progressive posts been deleted?
For example, two people pointed out in deleted posts that "1099 employee" is a meaningless phrase, because you can't be an employee and receive a 1099 (reserved for contractors and freelances). There's quite a lot of interesting guidance available from the IRS on this, because it's an easy way for unscrupulous employers to refuse to pay federally mandated benefits while otherwise treating someone as an employee. Understandably, the tax authorities are not keen on this sort of thing: HMRC (Her Majesty's Revenue and Customs) in the UK offers similar guidelines.
Once the background is suppressed to this degree, it's quite hard to continue the discussion. I fully understand Doug's wish to keep it 'on topic' as far as photography goes, and I have scrupulously attempted to do so. But equally, given that the topic is political awareness, it's quite hard to discuss how to photograph it without discussing the topic itself.
We have here, I think, a case for the 'photo essay', which, as I have said several times, normally relies heavily on words as well as on pictures. This dead woman: was she an innocent woman murdered by freedom fighters, a secret terrorist, or an heroic government supporter murdered by terrorists? This man dressed in rags: is he a hero struggling to support his family on next to nothing, or a talentless wastrel who should be grateful to get a job at below minimum wage?
There are those of us who would say that photography is about more than this. I've just bought a brilliant book, "Les Cent Photos du Siècle" (Marie-Monique Ronin, 1999, Editions France Loisirs). The title translates as "The Hundred Photos of the Century". It begins with the Shroud of Turin, the Boxer Rebellion, an Autochrome of Kaiser Bill and a Lewis Hine picture of a child labourer in a mill. It goes on to the Suffragettes, World War One, the Soviet Union, the execution of Ruth Snyder... Religion, politics and death.
So: let's take our "1099 employee". Where does he/she live? What are his/her economies and (if any) luxuries? What hours does he/she work? What happens when he/she is sick? This can all be photographed.
Or for another example, I am talking to a friend -- a rich man, a retired business executive -- about taking pictures of the way food banks work in France: helping administer them is what he does in his retirement. You might call him a "champagne socialist" -- except that he's making sure that poor people get food, so better a "champagne socialist" than a "champagne fascist".
We have a forum about "Making $$$ from your photography". Why no forum about "Helping people with your photography"? Perhaps participating photographers would be kind enough to explain their political leanings (if any, if relevant), and whether these influenced their pictures, and to give us some idea of what they hoped their pictures might achieve, when they tell us their stories.
Cheers,
R.
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Michael Markey
Veteran
I had my original light hearted post deleted and then the post asking about the deletion deleted .
However , I do respect Doug`s wishes and he as a mod must do what he feels is best.
Let me try and explain myself better because this thread has me thinking.
Most of my photography is probably what one might consider as conservative in that I tend towards the more traditional aspects of English life which I feel, have been forgotten.
I document the Hunt a good deal .
This is still a divisive subject in English society despite the fact that actual hunting has been banned.
It has been made a class issue by those on the far left and violent clashes have occurred in the past .
I should add at this point that I am not myself a hunter ,quite the opposite but I do believe in free expression which is why I try and give a voice to these issues.
I`m also given to taking pictures of street preachers and local churches which may be considered an equally odd and conservative subject in secular England.
However , I do respect Doug`s wishes and he as a mod must do what he feels is best.
Let me try and explain myself better because this thread has me thinking.
Most of my photography is probably what one might consider as conservative in that I tend towards the more traditional aspects of English life which I feel, have been forgotten.
I document the Hunt a good deal .
This is still a divisive subject in English society despite the fact that actual hunting has been banned.
It has been made a class issue by those on the far left and violent clashes have occurred in the past .
I should add at this point that I am not myself a hunter ,quite the opposite but I do believe in free expression which is why I try and give a voice to these issues.
I`m also given to taking pictures of street preachers and local churches which may be considered an equally odd and conservative subject in secular England.
Roger Hicks
Veteran
Dear Michael,
Great! At last a self-confessed conservative photographer of conservative subjects -- and one who is probably doing a lot of good. Do you arrange exhibitions or the like?
Cheers,
R.
Michael Markey
Veteran
Dear Roger
I`m afraid that I don`t Roger so any message inherent in my work is considerably muted.
What motivates me is a sense of balance rather than any blind endorsement .
I might add that I have been a full time staff representative in years past so have tried to do my bit for the financially deprived although not through the medium of photography.
Like I said balance in all things.
Best
Michael
I`m afraid that I don`t Roger so any message inherent in my work is considerably muted.
What motivates me is a sense of balance rather than any blind endorsement .
I might add that I have been a full time staff representative in years past so have tried to do my bit for the financially deprived although not through the medium of photography.
Like I said balance in all things.
Best
Michael
Rodchenko
Olympian
But photos of hunts are often used by the humane lobby.
Michael Markey
Veteran
Yes they did when they were actually hunting.
The hunt monitors do still take pictures in order to ensure that the hunts are keeping within the law.
They do that ,often, from a discreet distance.
That is somewhat different from the pictures that I take which depict it as a social activity.
MartinP
Veteran
I didn't bother posting before as the discussion was rather pointless, but we should recall that the OP is from North America so the words conservative and liberal have completely different meanings to the same words in British-English. This is not the first time things have got mixed up as a result.