Conspicuous Consumption

Bill Pierce

Bill Pierce

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Digital Leicas continue to improve. Leaked info on the upcoming M with the CMOS sensor is positive, But digital M’s have two drawbacks. (1) They are for many folks prohibitively expensive, especially if you need multiple bodies for quick use with different focal length lenses or need multiple bodies for back up when you are traveling. (2) The tolerances for lens cams and cam feelers must be extremely high if a variety of large aperture lenses are to focus accurately on a several bodies. This has not always been the case. Thom Hogan, whose industry views I respect, has said, “I think we’ll see Leica move from manual, rangefinder focusing to something else. But not yet.”

We have an expensive, somewhat specialized and limited system with a great history. But, there is no question that over the last decades it has been marketed in part as a conspicuous consumption item. The Leica camera used to be in the hands of a lot of folks who used photography to preserve some important moments. I don’t see that very much anymore. And it saddens me. Any thoughts here on the Rangefinder Forum?
 
I'd say be happy for Leica. If you're running a company, don't worry too much about where the sales come from, just be happy you've got sales. Yes, Leicas are a luxury item, and if that's the market where they can succeed, good for them.

The same must surely be true for DHW Fototechnik, perhaps to an extent, Hasselblad, Linhof etc.
 
I'm not an average consumer with respect to cameras, and I doubt that many on a camera equipment forum specializing in rangefinder and film cameras are. So speculating on what trends might be in the larger context of the marketplace seems mostly a lot of opinion and personal predilection.

I've never seen the Leica M as anything but a somewhat expensive, high quality camera. It has its advantages and limitations, based on its design and what's available for it in lenses and accessories. I choose to use one because it suits what I do well, and works the way I like a camera to work. If that means I need to spend a bunch more money to get what I want, well, so what? ... As long as I can afford it, I don't care.

Leica seems to be selling both bodies and lenses as fast as they can make them, and making a respectable profit from doing so, so whatever the pundits might want to say I think the evidence is that Leica knows their business better than any of us outside the company do.

G
 
Bill,

I completely agree that the Leica cameras of old, and for me old is 1950's, 1960's and early 1970's were used to capture important moments in history. Their use during the Vietnam War and the Civil Rights movement alone will always leave a lasting impression on me.

But for the work I am doing now, the speed of an autofocus DSLR can really come in handy in the middle of a hectic story.

I have taken my "old" film Leicas out on assignment when I know I will be working in close and at a slower pace. And I have spent a number of months trying to outfit my one digital M to use on projects.

But the focus issue has bitten me in the backside. I love the "art" of rangefinder focusing, but am a bit at a loss on the tolerances which effect the accuracy. On my M8.2 (which was recently service by Leica), now that I am using the proper diopter (aging eyes), my four M lenses, including my 90 cron pre-asph, are spot on. But when I use that same 90 cron on my M6TTL (recently given a full CLA by Leica) it front focuses pretty badly at any distance past fifteen feet. Same results on my M3 (just had the focus on that adjusted by DAG). My 25mm ZM is spot on with the M8.2, but soft on both the film Leicas. Drives me a bit crazy, and precludes me from using them for work.

I love the Leica glass when it is spot on, just wish the Leica bodies were better at helping me achieve that.

Best,
-Tim
 
thegman said:
I'd say be happy for Leica. If you're running a company, don't worry too much about where the sales come from, just be happy you've got sales. Yes, Leicas are a luxury item, and if that's the market where they can succeed, good for them.
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I'm not worried about Leica. I'm worried about young photographers who can not afford and will not use Leicas. After a few generations in which Leica sales disappear from the main stream, we can then worry about Leica when the revenue from limited production limits their research and innovation to leather coverings in different colors or "editions" of cameras named after well known people or events.
 
Could the best Leíca for amateurs and professionals be the used Leíca?

And what keeps professional media from souping up an iPhone 4 with Schneider add-on lenses (like the Yashica range finders of the late 1970's) and blend in where the news occur?

I've seen wedding photography made exclusively with iPhones and the pictures are superb! Even a photo-reportage made exclusively on iPhone camera on the Himalayas http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-18604676 , and found it outstanding! Perhaps it is my 48 years of age eyes that have become too complacent!

I was very close to owning a Leica M3 with a 50mm f/2 lens (Summarit perhaps) meter, but in the end I decided to thoroughly use the equipment that I have in hand. Perhaps wait for a used X1 or X2 to jump into the digital bandwagon...
 
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Bill Pierce said:
I'm not worried about Leica. I'm worried about young photographers who can not afford and will not use Leicas. After a few generations in which Leica sales disappear from the main stream, we can then worry about Leica when the revenue from limited production limits their research and innovation to leather coverings in different colors or "editions" of cameras named after well known people or events.
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I don't know about that, Bill. Seems to me that most of the new Leica M9 owners I've met in the past couple of years have all been relatively young and quite excited to shoot with a Leica. Many of them would go on extolling how much more they like their new camera compared to the CaNikoSonyTax they had before.

Photography always gets practiced by people with at least some money. If it's important to them, they put everything they have into it. If that includes a Leica, well, they do it.

Leica produces plenty of nice custom editions, but their mainstay has always been the standard model camera and it's always what sells the most. The rest just attract more attention to the brand.

G
 
I don't worry about young or older new photographers using Leicas. The camera is just a tool for expression, documentation and a staring point or manipulated art... digital or analog. New photographers will find their way.

I do understand being sad about new photographers not having the analog photography experiences we enjoyed and cherish. Many decades ago I carried around a relatively small and minimalistic SLR with one or two prime lenses. Sometimes I see young people with large DSLRs and huge 18-200 mm zoom lenses and feel they are missing something.

My guess is older generations have felt this way over and over again for countless generations. The main difference now is the rate of change now seems breath taking.

I want to acknowledge the active young and new photographers on RFF who find value and enjoy analog cameras and mechanical lenses of all makes and types. Kudos to Steven Gandy for creating a means for experienced and new photographers to meet and learn from each other.
 
the new technologies have made sharing images easier and that's good news for the majority of 'photographers' and the industry in general. Even PROs and experienced shooters are starting to collaborate (collective-ise) to some degree. Manual upload/downloads are a pain in the a$$ for many individuals (see the current confussion at photobucket for example), and except for copyright issues, sharing (selective) photos is a positive thing. Most likely the majority of mfg's will continue to move in a more open and ease-of-use direction, at least in part.

I was reading some comments by an individual who presents himself as a PRO... he was saying he was dissapointed by the Leica experience (M9-P) after he went in that direction based on his desire to "be more serious about his photography". Maybe he was equating 'serious' with 'expensive' ;-)... expectations / lack of thinking thru issues...

The other aspect is the viewer of images... if your 'friends' don't take the time to even look at and comment on your photos, over time you might tend to become less diligent in "preserving your importaint moments" for 'them'... pride in execution of a task. As well the issue of internet vs. prints / who does slides any more...

My "user group" does not appreciate (or appreciates less) when I use b&w, so I am forced to improve my skills in post processing Fujicolor PRO400, which is more difficult for me than shooting RAW files. At least for now I 'social media' my images rather than attach them to an email... remember e-mail, it was before 'messaging' ;-).

Casey
 
The top 1 percent in the USA in the last 20 years have become so rich that 7k for a camera is trivial. Tiffany is doing great as are companies that are building & selling yachts and private planes. I assume that is the way it is around the world. Why else is there a long waiting list for the new Leica M.
 
The main motivation behind conspicuous consumption is showing off one's taste and of course bank balance, but taste is a far more important factor. Owning a Leica M, a digital one these days, is basically trying to say that one is aware of photography's history and Leica's shared heritage with some of the best works in photography... But this is also where things get tricky, because some people might perceive that its actually buying one's way into photography and attention seeking. Of course one does not have to be a racing driver to own a fast car but at the same time, owning a fast car and not knowing how to drive one or driving one to get groceries really makes the whole thing rather silly... I can also say this for certain that I have yet to see someone with a Leica M who actually used that camera confidently and with authority on the streets, most Leica M owners that I come across seem insecure and nervous, as if they're being made fun of or laughed at because they're using a Leica... I find that silly as well.
 
upceci said:
The main motivation behind conspicuous consumption is showing off one's taste and of course bank balance, but taste is a far more important factor. Owning a Leica M, a digital one these days, is basically trying to say that one is aware of photography's history and Leica's shared heritage with some of the best works in photography... But this is also where things get tricky, because some people might perceive that its actually buying one's way into photography and attention seeking. Of course one does not have to be a racing driver to own a fast car but at the same time, owning a fast car and not knowing how to drive one or driving one to get groceries really makes the whole thing rather silly... I can also say this for certain that I have yet to see someone with a Leica M who actually used that camera confidently and with authority on the streets, most Leica M owners that I come across seem insecure and nervous, as if they're being made fun of or laughed at because they're using a Leica... I find that silly as well.
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... I expect you have photos of these silly people? ... I would love to see them
 
upceci said:
The main motivation behind conspicuous consumption is showing off one's taste and of course bank balance, but taste is a far more important factor. Owning a Leica M, a digital one these days, is basically trying to say that one is aware of photography's history and Leica's shared heritage with some of the best works in photography... But this is also where things get tricky, because some people might perceive that its actually buying one's way into photography and attention seeking. Of course one does not have to be a racing driver to own a fast car but at the same time, owning a fast car and not knowing how to drive one or driving one to get groceries really makes the whole thing rather silly... I can also say this for certain that I have yet to see someone with a Leica M who actually used that camera confidently and with authority on the streets, most Leica M owners that I come across seem insecure and nervous, as if they're being made fun of or laughed at because they're using a Leica... I find that silly as well.
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I suspect you don't hang out with the right crowd.

Come on out to the SF Bay Area and I'll call for a day shoot in SF on the streets amongst my friends. Not a timid sparrow amongst them, all Leica owners/users... :)

G
 
Of course, its my own bad luck that I have not come across confident Leica users, but at the same time when I come across photographers, irrespective of what camera they use, I try to smile and make them feel that its good that they're photographing... I'd also never take pictures in order to mock or shame someone, in fact I stop myself from telling nervous photographers to just relax and not worry too much... After all I have been there myself and I know how it feels.
 
Leica is still selling cameras and that's great, but look who's using them. The people I have encountered with digital M's are just amateurs. You almost never see a pro with a Leica anymore. And yes, some still do, but I bet you it's significantly less than 30+ years ago. I think that says something. It used to worth the money to have the well-built, high quality camera, but now the price doesn't justify the product when they are putting out equally great work from cheaper camera systems.
 
"The Leica camera used to be in the hands of a lot of folks who used photography to preserve some important moments."

But, Leicas also were always in the hands of people who never preserved "important moments".
Bill, "important moments", is a relative term.
What's important to me might not be important to anyone else.
I've ordered the new M-Leica and I suppose I"ll never take a photograph with it that will be important to anyone else but me.
The Leica Camera Company could not exist if it relied only on sales to photographers who "preserve important moments."
I know a dozen guys who own several Leicas each, and not one of these guys has ever taken a memorable photograph.
That's the heart of the real Leica market....guys who love beautiful cameras and can afford them.
Just like the guys who wear Rolex Submariners and have never dived in anything but a swimming pool.
It's been that way for decades.
 
Dunn said:
Leica is still selling cameras and that's great, but look who's using them. The people I have encountered with digital M's are just amateurs. You almost never see a pro with a Leica anymore. And yes, some still do, but I bet you it's significantly less than 30+ years ago. I think that says something. It used to worth the money to have the well-built, high quality camera, but now the price doesn't justify the product when they are putting out equally great work from cheaper camera systems.
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Good point. Where is the future if not used for serious stuff? Eye Candy?
 
For folks like me, who are willing to buy old, used cameras, Leica can be the same as it ever was.

That said, it's disheartening to think that the firm is moving so far from its origins, that I might be priced out of ever owning a new one again.

If that weren't enough to dissuade me, there's also the issue of how rapidly some of the electronic models will obsolesce and/or die with no spare parts available (says the owner of an M8 with its orphaned sensor).
 
Current Nikon and Canon bodies are almost as expensive as Leicas. What we need is a basic digital modul-M camera back under $2000.
 
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