bangaio
Newbie
OK, it goes like this: I have been using canon EOS kit since I was about 13 (now 26 by the way) – however recently I have started to get the urge to become a bit more basic (partly as a backlash after trying digital and then realising I preferred using film) in what I use. SO now having got the bug for using primes and going back to B&W and regaining some of the enjoyment used to get I remember that my dad has 2 Leicas: a III and more importantly an M3 with 50mm Sumicron Dual Range, which he has offered to lend to me for a while. I would pretty much shoot b&w but have only ever used one camera without a meter (an Ilford sportsman which when I was very young had a quick film style guide to what shutter speed and aperture to use taped to the back). I have a good understanding of exposure but am quite worried about what to do. What do people here do? Carry a hand held meter? I do not want to use a clip on/accessory meter so do I just go with judgement?
vladhed
R.I.P. 1997-2006
Good for you!!
Shooting without a light meter is good training for understanding light and exposure - it forces you to really think about your scene and how it will be rendered on film. My father collects old cameras and as a teenager, I used to borrow them from time to time and just shoot using the sunny-16 rule. Often I'd bring my Nikon FE with slide film - sometimes I'd whimp out and meter with it first. I started to really understand that the light meter was trying to make everything 18% grey!
I've described my new setup in my thread about my Zorki 4 with a Sekonic L-98. Basically when shooting out of doors, I can guess the exposure pretty accurately - often second guessing the meter (e.g. pointing it at a white stucco building it gave me f22 when I knew the illumination dictates f16). But I use the meter a lot when shooting at dawn-dusk, or inside, where it is more tricky to guess exposure.
Check out my gallery for good example of this.
Shooting without a light meter is good training for understanding light and exposure - it forces you to really think about your scene and how it will be rendered on film. My father collects old cameras and as a teenager, I used to borrow them from time to time and just shoot using the sunny-16 rule. Often I'd bring my Nikon FE with slide film - sometimes I'd whimp out and meter with it first. I started to really understand that the light meter was trying to make everything 18% grey!
I've described my new setup in my thread about my Zorki 4 with a Sekonic L-98. Basically when shooting out of doors, I can guess the exposure pretty accurately - often second guessing the meter (e.g. pointing it at a white stucco building it gave me f22 when I knew the illumination dictates f16). But I use the meter a lot when shooting at dawn-dusk, or inside, where it is more tricky to guess exposure.
Check out my gallery for good example of this.
GeneW
Veteran
The meter in my Leica CL works fine, but it's a spot meter and I have to be very careful where I point it.
I usually don't use it, preferring to guess the light (sunny-16) then confirming with a Sekonic Studio Deluxe II incident meter I carry in my bag. Once I have the basic metering for a place, I can adjust mentally for lighter and darker scenes outdoors without additional metering. (I shoot mainly B&W film)
If you're in the market for a meter there are two cool ones. The CV clipon meter is a nice fit on Leicas. The one I would really like to own is the Gossen DigiSix -- a tiny little meter that is lightweight and easy to carry and is supposedly very accurate. It has a clip-on accessory if you want to keep it on your camera but it's tiny enough you can wear its cord around your neck and keep it in your shirt pocket.
Gene
I usually don't use it, preferring to guess the light (sunny-16) then confirming with a Sekonic Studio Deluxe II incident meter I carry in my bag. Once I have the basic metering for a place, I can adjust mentally for lighter and darker scenes outdoors without additional metering. (I shoot mainly B&W film)
If you're in the market for a meter there are two cool ones. The CV clipon meter is a nice fit on Leicas. The one I would really like to own is the Gossen DigiSix -- a tiny little meter that is lightweight and easy to carry and is supposedly very accurate. It has a clip-on accessory if you want to keep it on your camera but it's tiny enough you can wear its cord around your neck and keep it in your shirt pocket.
Gene
L
Laika
Guest
Unless your going to buy a hand meter this page will be very helpful.
THE ULTIMATE EXPOSURE COMPUTER
http://www.fredparker.com/ultexp1.htm#Light Intensity Chart
I printed out the two exposure charts on a half A4 sheet and stuck it in my pocket when going "meterless", after some use I was getting very close when I stopped to think about the lighting conditions. In the end I bought a little hand meter (Gossen Digiflash) but the sheet is still in my camera bag just in case.
THE ULTIMATE EXPOSURE COMPUTER
http://www.fredparker.com/ultexp1.htm#Light Intensity Chart
I printed out the two exposure charts on a half A4 sheet and stuck it in my pocket when going "meterless", after some use I was getting very close when I stopped to think about the lighting conditions. In the end I bought a little hand meter (Gossen Digiflash) but the sheet is still in my camera bag just in case.
pvdhaar
Peter
If the M3 is your dad's, then why not ask him? I can imagine he used the exposure guide pictures on the cardboard boxes the film comes in. Especially B&W film has enough lattitude for this.
When I'm out with only my 6x6 (meterless SLR) I just set 1/125@f8 and close down 2 stops when in full sun or open up two stops when stepping into the shadow. This way I don't have to meter every moment. Always works, and a handheld meter merely confirms that (I have a very small Gossen Sixtino which doesn't use batteries that I sometimes carry).
When I'm out with only my 6x6 (meterless SLR) I just set 1/125@f8 and close down 2 stops when in full sun or open up two stops when stepping into the shadow. This way I don't have to meter every moment. Always works, and a handheld meter merely confirms that (I have a very small Gossen Sixtino which doesn't use batteries that I sometimes carry).
bangaio
Newbie
Well that is how he tought me effectivly how to set up exposure on my ilford - but I know he does have a clip on Leica meter that seemes to be coupled to the shutter speed dial. Thik i'll go for a combo of the sunny 16 rule and some guide lines. If all else fails then i'll sort out a handheld meter.
Out of interest, do certain films have better latitude? I use HP5 at the moment.
Out of interest, do certain films have better latitude? I use HP5 at the moment.
pvdhaar
Peter
HP-5 is excellent for this, it's also used in Ilford's single use camera. Goes at 1/100@f9.5 so that should give you a starting point for sunny weather.
But from experience, with HP-5 I'd rather over expose than underexpose.
But from experience, with HP-5 I'd rather over expose than underexpose.
oftheherd
Veteran
All good suggestions above. When in school and later early in the Army, I used the exposure info in the film box. Worked quite well. I even took a lot of crime scene photos that way. It got to where I pretty well knew what to use without looking at the film sheet.
For my cameras that don't have light meters now, I generally try to use a light meter. I haven't had my eyes calibrated in a long time now. I now have a Gossen Luna Pro to replace my old love, the Sekonic Studio Deluxe L28c2 which I dropped just one time too many. Nice as the Gossen is, I just have to replace the Sekonic or get it repaired. I really liked that meter!
For my cameras that don't have light meters now, I generally try to use a light meter. I haven't had my eyes calibrated in a long time now. I now have a Gossen Luna Pro to replace my old love, the Sekonic Studio Deluxe L28c2 which I dropped just one time too many. Nice as the Gossen is, I just have to replace the Sekonic or get it repaired. I really liked that meter!
R
Rich Silfver
Guest
His clip-on meter is probably an MC/MR meter and if it works you should give it a try - you may like it.
I'm finding it intimidating to go out completely without a meter so my small and trusty Sekonic L308-BII comes with me - but I am honestly contemplating a clip-on meter if I can find a nice looking and working one.
Have fun!
I'm finding it intimidating to go out completely without a meter so my small and trusty Sekonic L308-BII comes with me - but I am honestly contemplating a clip-on meter if I can find a nice looking and working one.
Have fun!
vladhed
R.I.P. 1997-2006
I can't believe I used to shoot Kodachrome 64 using the table on the inside of the box for exposure! I'd say 3/4 of the slides were prefectly exposed - but then I knew the limits and only took a shot if I knew there was a reasonable chance of it being exposed correctly - I think that is the trick to not wasting a lot of film - know the limits and be willing to work within them.
With HP5 or Tri-X, I take more chances: e.g. indoor daytime photos - amazing how f4 @ 1/30 will give a usable print for 80% of the shots!!
With HP5 or Tri-X, I take more chances: e.g. indoor daytime photos - amazing how f4 @ 1/30 will give a usable print for 80% of the shots!!
bangaio
Newbie
Thanks for all your sugestions. I think i'll have a play with it for a while and see what results i'll get. I have been paying close attention to my EOS readings recently since I decided to give this a go.
For what it is worth - I will be getting to play with a 1,000,000+ M3 single wind that is pretty much mint bar a bit of vulcanite missing at an edge with Summicron Dual Range. Having used an EOS 100 made out of polycarbonate with a plastic lense for the last 5 years even having a quick "play" with the beautiful m3 was some eye opener. Being able to focus after a couple of minutes practice as a speed that would approach my USM lenses was something else. The feel is out of this world and I cant wait to start running film through it. The only problem then is if i get the bug properly for it i will have no option but to get a leica of my own.
For what it is worth - I will be getting to play with a 1,000,000+ M3 single wind that is pretty much mint bar a bit of vulcanite missing at an edge with Summicron Dual Range. Having used an EOS 100 made out of polycarbonate with a plastic lense for the last 5 years even having a quick "play" with the beautiful m3 was some eye opener. Being able to focus after a couple of minutes practice as a speed that would approach my USM lenses was something else. The feel is out of this world and I cant wait to start running film through it. The only problem then is if i get the bug properly for it i will have no option but to get a leica of my own.
I think it'd be useful to have a non-clipon hand-held meter, one with analog readout and rotating calculator dial. Using one of these is very educational.
In fact, I just recalled a most-influential learning tool for me -- a Kodak cardboard exposure guide. A bit bigger than a credit card, this colorful item went a step further than the surprisingly useful exposure suggestion charts that came with each roll of film...
It had a circular exposure calculator dial riveted to the card. You could rotate the dial as you would on a meter to match various lighting conditions, and then see all the shutter speed and f/stop combinations at a glance.
It was this little device that taught me what reciprocity was all about, and I remember the flash of understanding when it all suddenly made sense! That was about 1963, and I'm not so sure I've learned anything more significant since. <g>
In fact, I just recalled a most-influential learning tool for me -- a Kodak cardboard exposure guide. A bit bigger than a credit card, this colorful item went a step further than the surprisingly useful exposure suggestion charts that came with each roll of film...
It had a circular exposure calculator dial riveted to the card. You could rotate the dial as you would on a meter to match various lighting conditions, and then see all the shutter speed and f/stop combinations at a glance.
It was this little device that taught me what reciprocity was all about, and I remember the flash of understanding when it all suddenly made sense! That was about 1963, and I'm not so sure I've learned anything more significant since. <g>
SolaresLarrave
My M5s need red dots!
bangaio, there's only one way to do what you want, and it's called trial and error. However, not all has to be more error than trial.
First off, if you will use a meter, get the one your dad used. They were made for Leicas, and they're designed to "communicate" mechanically with the camera to help you set the best exposure.
If you want to go meterless... I believe Doug or Joe told me a little secret: use a meter to take an incident light metering from yourself (provided you're not wearing bright colored clothes) and set it in your camera. As you photograph different scenes, adjust either aperture or shutterspeed to the varying degrees of light of the scenes you want to shoot. Bear in mind that shadows can go from 1 to 3 stops, depending on the intensity of the sun. Do this with print film, as it is more forgiving than slide. If you choose slide film, take a quick metering for every shot.
Remember: meters aren't perfect either. I have a small portable Sekonic L208 that tends to overexpose. I found it out after my very first roll in my meterless Mamiya C220. After that, I always set the ISO a bit slower to compensate for the off-metering. So far, so good.
About films, you can try either a classic like Kodak Tri-X, or any of the chromogenic films available. Just don't expect good results right away. Since you've had so much experience with an SLR, you'll soon find out that guessing the right exposure isn't too difficult.
Sorry, I still haven't mastered the art. All my cameras, except my medium format ones, are metered... Still, I do have a little experience at meterless shooting and I hope it adds to the great advice you've received so far. Good luck!
First off, if you will use a meter, get the one your dad used. They were made for Leicas, and they're designed to "communicate" mechanically with the camera to help you set the best exposure.
If you want to go meterless... I believe Doug or Joe told me a little secret: use a meter to take an incident light metering from yourself (provided you're not wearing bright colored clothes) and set it in your camera. As you photograph different scenes, adjust either aperture or shutterspeed to the varying degrees of light of the scenes you want to shoot. Bear in mind that shadows can go from 1 to 3 stops, depending on the intensity of the sun. Do this with print film, as it is more forgiving than slide. If you choose slide film, take a quick metering for every shot.
Remember: meters aren't perfect either. I have a small portable Sekonic L208 that tends to overexpose. I found it out after my very first roll in my meterless Mamiya C220. After that, I always set the ISO a bit slower to compensate for the off-metering. So far, so good.
About films, you can try either a classic like Kodak Tri-X, or any of the chromogenic films available. Just don't expect good results right away. Since you've had so much experience with an SLR, you'll soon find out that guessing the right exposure isn't too difficult.
Sorry, I still haven't mastered the art. All my cameras, except my medium format ones, are metered... Still, I do have a little experience at meterless shooting and I hope it adds to the great advice you've received so far. Good luck!
vladhed
R.I.P. 1997-2006
You can also try Rick Olsen's pocket exposure calculator