Derek Leath
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Larry Cloetta
Veteran
And thats so important to you, that you posted it twice in five minutes...
Anyway: AFAIK the reasoning is (at least here in Germany, where the situation is serious, but much less than in the US, and where people probably don‘t behave much better than in the US except for a general rule to wear masks in defined situations like when shopping in the supermarket) that the mask might not protect you fully against infection, but it protects other from you, spreading it, when you are unknowingly carrying it. Even then it is not perfect, but it slows particles, aerosols and such down. And that then seems to have a measurable effect: Respiratory virus shedding in exhaled breath and efficacy of face masks
There are many more of such studies and similar results, but of course, one has to find them instead of ignore them.
I see it this way: when you really do lectures about correctness of medical studies, then you‘ve heard about risk analysis ( sorry if I use the wrong term, as I‘m not a native speaker). And since neither studies are 100% conclusive if even normal masks help lowering the risk of infecting others in specific situations or not, then just because of the risk to infect people with a currently very dangerous virus would be a good reason to wear one and educate people how to do it correctly instead of outright rejecting the idea completely.
It‘s not a big thing, IMHO, to do that for your fellow citizens.
(This post is way too long about a topic where people usually stop talking with reason after two or three replies to each other, and it contains no pictures, so I apologize for that. Maybe later, I have plenty of related pictures.)
“ There are many more of such studies and similar results, but of course, one has to find them instead of ignore them.”
That’s true, there are many more such studies with similar results. But, the referenced study does not demonstrate anything which counters anything which I posted above. In fact, there are no actual studies which do so. I have no disagreement with the findings of this study, but they are not relevant to the discussion of whether generalized mask mandates have provide the results that the lay public thinks they do.
This study was about the transmission of liquid droplets greater than 100 microns in size i.e. tangible matter expelled when sneezing or coughing, and aerosols containing liquid particles around the 5 micron level, sizes which are several orders of magnitude larger than viruses. This study is not measuring viruses which are released in normal breathing. The study found that masks reduced the transmission of viruses contained in aerosols and larger globules as in coughing from being found in 30% of the samples from sick patients not wearing a mask, to 10% of the samples of those wearing masks, a small but statistically significant finding. But, to understand exactly how relevant this is to the discussion of incidental contact in a public setting, you have to understand how these results were obtained and contrast that with situations outside a laboratory, and then apply that to real world applications.
They used a G-II Bioaerosol collector to come up with these results, and it was worn for 30 minutes while patients breathed, sneezed, and coughed into it. After 30 minutes, there were detectable viral loads in the collected samples of more or less 30% of those not wearing masks, and 10% of those wearing masks.
This is what a G-II Bioaerosol collector looks like:
It took 30 minutes of collecting everything from basically one inch away from the subject’s mouth to generate the results in this study. The results are valid, but need to be put into context and applied to everyday situations of human contact. There is nothing in here which contradicts anything I mentioned earlier, it only amplifies it. 30 minutes of close sustained contact with infected people. Hospitals, nursing homes, private homes with sick family members. That’s when masks matter, not walking past people on the street while being a few feet away.
The effect of masks in this study referenced here could be duplicated by holding your hand over your mouth when you cough, or sneezing into your elbow. It was dealing with the spread of tangible droplets and aerosols, not normal breathing.
If we are talking about the proven efficacy of the mandatory wearing of cloth masks in stopping the spread of this disease, person to person, out in the air, normal distances, which is what I was specifically talking about, there simply are not any studies demonstrating that, and there won’t be, because that is not how this virus spreads.
People want to post other studies which they think, like this one, backs up the idea that has caused normal people to drive around in their cars with masks on, that’s okay, because I can do this all day. But, I am not going to because it’s become a religious cult which is marked by the same kind of cognitive dissonance as every cult. All I would ask is for the few people who are open to reason and the actual science, to ask themselves a few questions now and then and at least consider the possible answers to those questions, even if you don’t have a background in medical research. Questions like: there were a quarter of a million people packed into Sturgis SD a few months ago, in close quarters not wearing masks, because bikers, and the huge, eagerly awaited superspreader event of the massive anticipated increase in cases and deaths from that bit of unmasked carelessness never happened, contrary to initial reports. Why not? I live in a small town with a small population in a valley enclosed on all sides by mountains, populated by people who are not naturally “followers”. We has over 4 million people flood in here in the last 3 months from urban areas with large incidences of Covid-19 cases, who took a very lackadaisical approach to mask wearing while they were here. We expected the result to be a hellscape of disease and death brought in here by obvious carriers. The actual result was nothing, tiny uptake in cases, but no deaths or significant illnesses. Why not? That’s a huge sample size, an in vitro experiment, that’s not “luck”.
Most people won’t question what they are told if it seems to be coming from people they trust, if they hear it often enough, even if they don’t understand the science, I get that. It’s hard to push back against that no matter the evidence.
Out to Lunch
Ventor
This, 20 August 2020, advisory from the Mayo Clinic, which I believe is a leading hospital in the US: https://www.mayoclinic.org/coronavir...k/art-20485449
The opening paragraph -with much more detail in the following paras:
"Can face masks help slow the spread of the coronavirus (SARS-CoV-2) that causes COVID-19? Yes, face masks combined with other preventive measures, such as frequent hand-washing and social distancing, help slow the spread of the virus."
Live and learn. Cheers, OtL
The opening paragraph -with much more detail in the following paras:
"Can face masks help slow the spread of the coronavirus (SARS-CoV-2) that causes COVID-19? Yes, face masks combined with other preventive measures, such as frequent hand-washing and social distancing, help slow the spread of the virus."
Live and learn. Cheers, OtL
Larry Cloetta
Veteran
For what it’s worth, none of the references listed in the policy article posted on the Mayo Clinic website demonstrated, or even addressed, the issue of “do masks have an effect on the transmission of the disease”, outside of a sustained close contact situation.
The article was a public policy statement along the lines of “an abundance of caution, cannot hurt.” There is nothing there to substantiate anyone’s claims that the general public’s wearing of cloth masks while walking around outside does anything at all except make certain people feel better and safer, which might be a good thing. But it’s not “science.”
This is exactly like, not similar to but exactly like, the wearing of cloth coverings sprinkled with perfume over the face during the Black Death. It’s the same level of fear based understanding. Same kind of disease process, same modes of transmission, in essence.
Same kind of blind panic during the early stages of the AIDS epidemic when trusted sources were telling us that we could get AIDS from going to the dental office, or just being in close contact with homosexuals, using silverware in restaurants that hadn’t been disinfected after a homosexual ate there. It all made sense at the time.
Perceptions change after a while and even mass media finally comes around. We are not quite there yet with the coronavirus as it is still early, but more and more people in the scientific community are beginning to push back on some of the strictures.
There is no reason to be careless, and there are many sensible precautions regarding the spread of the virus, but there are some ideas with wide currency, as there were at the same stage in the AIDS epidemic, that are not backed up with legitimate research.
But, whatever.
Out to Lunch
Ventor
Larry, the piece was written by Mayo Clinic staff. You seem to be saying that these MDs don't know what they are talking about. Get real, and put your mask on. Cheers, OtL
DwF
Well-known
With regard to "the mask" the numbers currently paint a different picture.
Back in late May, early June I attended (from the periphery) a peaceful protest in my community here where I was amazed that nearly if not everyone wore masks in what appeared to be easily a couple thousand in attendance. The local hospital recorded zero cases in the week following that event. On the other hand I read of other events, for example the recent coming out party for Judge Barrett where we see a different result.
At the University here in Bellingham, where there is very strong adherance to protocol that includes mask wearing, out of 4090 tests performed since September 15th when students began to come back to campus, 4 have tested positive. That suggests to me that the culture, one that includes mask wearing is not a bad thing.
Masks are part of a routine that, as mentioned above, along with keeping hands washed and eyes protected contribute to good hygienic practice. The Mask also serves as a "hygiene flag", not for democrats or republicans, but all who value community. A "flag" as a constant reminder that we are all placing care for others first and foremost, while we get through this. And if that flag helps to hold some of the germs back as apparently is the case, all the better.
It is quite stunning that people continue to weigh an apparent "individual" freedom of expression over the privilege of supporting others well-being in any times, let alone a time of such crises. That to me is the real story.
David
Back in late May, early June I attended (from the periphery) a peaceful protest in my community here where I was amazed that nearly if not everyone wore masks in what appeared to be easily a couple thousand in attendance. The local hospital recorded zero cases in the week following that event. On the other hand I read of other events, for example the recent coming out party for Judge Barrett where we see a different result.
At the University here in Bellingham, where there is very strong adherance to protocol that includes mask wearing, out of 4090 tests performed since September 15th when students began to come back to campus, 4 have tested positive. That suggests to me that the culture, one that includes mask wearing is not a bad thing.
Masks are part of a routine that, as mentioned above, along with keeping hands washed and eyes protected contribute to good hygienic practice. The Mask also serves as a "hygiene flag", not for democrats or republicans, but all who value community. A "flag" as a constant reminder that we are all placing care for others first and foremost, while we get through this. And if that flag helps to hold some of the germs back as apparently is the case, all the better.
It is quite stunning that people continue to weigh an apparent "individual" freedom of expression over the privilege of supporting others well-being in any times, let alone a time of such crises. That to me is the real story.
David
markjwyatt
Well-known
In terms of masks being effective or not, there are a number of factors to consider.
1. We are pretty sure that Covid-19 spreads through large droplets, such as emitted during a cough or sneeze. What is not as certain is whether Covid-19 spreads through aerosols. Large droplets fall to the ground quickly, and are the basis of the 6' "social distancing" idea. Aerosols float in the air and get caught up in ventilation systems, winds, etc.
2. What type of mask? My opinion: cloth masks do almost nothing other than act as a permanently mounted handkerchief (face diaper); surgical masks are a little better (surgical masks leak at sides and top, but are made from decent filter material- not as good as K/N95); N/K95 masks (properly fitted- and without exit valves) can actually reduce aerosol transmission and inhalation because they can filter. The counterpoint is K/N95 masks are extremely intolerable for all but short periods of time.
3. How are people infected? It appears that infection comes from close exposure for 10-30 minutes with a symptomatic infected person. Not passing by an infected person for 5 seconds on the street for instance (unless maybe they sneeze in your face).
4. Ventilation also plays in. In poorly ventilated rooms, aerosols can linger for a long time. Unfiltered or disinfected ducting can distribute aerosols. Out doors aerosols can be diffused quickly. Airplanes have high ventilation and air change rates and can filter/disinfect the air stream. On the other hand when someone coughs or sneezes, the ventilation system does not play into it as much except maybe to enlarge the distance large particles are spread or maybe change their direction.
So for medical professionals in medical procedures, especially ones involving aerosols, K/N95 masks are good. Surgical masks + faceshield make some sense, but do not guard much against inhalation of aerosols.
For ordinary people walking on the street I question wearing a cloth mask (or even surgical). Even in stores, not sure it does much, but may help a little. On airplanes, where it is hard to move around, a even a cloth mask at least acts as a barrier from any spread of large particles from nearby passengers.
1. We are pretty sure that Covid-19 spreads through large droplets, such as emitted during a cough or sneeze. What is not as certain is whether Covid-19 spreads through aerosols. Large droplets fall to the ground quickly, and are the basis of the 6' "social distancing" idea. Aerosols float in the air and get caught up in ventilation systems, winds, etc.
2. What type of mask? My opinion: cloth masks do almost nothing other than act as a permanently mounted handkerchief (face diaper); surgical masks are a little better (surgical masks leak at sides and top, but are made from decent filter material- not as good as K/N95); N/K95 masks (properly fitted- and without exit valves) can actually reduce aerosol transmission and inhalation because they can filter. The counterpoint is K/N95 masks are extremely intolerable for all but short periods of time.
3. How are people infected? It appears that infection comes from close exposure for 10-30 minutes with a symptomatic infected person. Not passing by an infected person for 5 seconds on the street for instance (unless maybe they sneeze in your face).
4. Ventilation also plays in. In poorly ventilated rooms, aerosols can linger for a long time. Unfiltered or disinfected ducting can distribute aerosols. Out doors aerosols can be diffused quickly. Airplanes have high ventilation and air change rates and can filter/disinfect the air stream. On the other hand when someone coughs or sneezes, the ventilation system does not play into it as much except maybe to enlarge the distance large particles are spread or maybe change their direction.
So for medical professionals in medical procedures, especially ones involving aerosols, K/N95 masks are good. Surgical masks + faceshield make some sense, but do not guard much against inhalation of aerosols.
For ordinary people walking on the street I question wearing a cloth mask (or even surgical). Even in stores, not sure it does much, but may help a little. On airplanes, where it is hard to move around, a even a cloth mask at least acts as a barrier from any spread of large particles from nearby passengers.