Could you "Winogrand"?

[Calzone]

Me too...I do a rough edit quickly (within days), then revisit it during a few months and edit more, than revisit again after years and edit more. I am always editing then... until something is just done. I'm all digital though these days.

John,

Now that a decade has lapsed, I'm looking at this decade of images as an archive. Many of the images I took are gone forever as a process of urban renewal, gentrification and the process of redevelopment. A sense of history gets played out in a way related to a time lapse.

The old Roselli Bookstore on 57th Street was torn down. That old abandoned diner on the Westside likewise. The iconic night shot I took now has a highrise in Long Island City blocking the Empire State Building.

These negatives I see as a record of history and certainly they are valuable. I look upon them as some of my most valuable treasure because they are such a large body of work that I estimate to be about a quarter of a million images on film.

2007-2017 marks just before the housing bubble popped in 2008, and recorded the Great Recession and the nine years after. In this regard time is the best editor.

Cal

 

[Tompas]

The article is in Coleman's book, Critical Focus: Photography in The International Image Community. P17.

"Gerry Winogrand was nothing more nor less than still photography's version of "Monkey Cam": A restless, anxious primate with camera attached, constantly scanning - unaware of, unresponsible for and uninterested in the results."

Later in the article, Coleman writes:

"How seriously can we take the droppings of a gluttonous voyeur who spent the last seven years of his life producing a third of a million negatives without bothering to look at any of them, much less analyze them critically?"
(...)

I think Coleman should be ashamed of these sentences.

And I wonder what in Winogrands person and/or his work makes quite a few people so aggressive?

 

[PRJ]

The article is in Coleman's book, Critical Focus: Photography in The International Image Community. P17.

"Gerry Winogrand was nothing more nor less than still photography's version of "Monkey Cam": A restless, anxious primate with camera attached, constantly scanning - unaware of, unresponsible for and uninterested in the results."

Later in the article, Coleman writes:

"How seriously can we take the droppings of a gluttonous voyeur who spent the last seven years of his life producing a third of a million negatives without bothering to look at any of them, much less analyze them critically?"

Coleman is one of my favorite writers on photography. I had the pleasure of meeting him the year I graduated from art school, and he signed my copy of "Critical Focus."

Well it looks like A.D. was wrong. According to this article Winogrand made 432,000 negatives without looking at them. So much for wanting to see what things looked like photographed. They were loaded with garbage too according to those that saw them. That type of output borders on some kind of mental problem.

Coleman is quite a mind. He called b.s. on the story behind the Capa D-Day photographs. Basically sussed it all out and exposed the lies. I've enjoyed his writing.

 

[ptpdprinter]

I look upon them as some of my most valuable treasure because they are such a large body of work that I estimate to be about a quarter of a million images on film.

Wow. 7000 rolls of film. I do not have enough time left in my brief life to edit that many images, much less print them.

 

[Big Ursus]

Years ago, when I was in Nicaragua for extended periods, I couldn't process my films. That got me into writing careful notes which might help me remember where and when I'd shot a roll. And those notes turned into articles for news papers - so not a bad process.

 

[Calzone]

Wow. 7000 rolls of film. I do not have enough time left in my brief life to edit that many images, much less print them.

PTP,

If you think of Pete Souza's shooting of 2 million shots over the eight years of President Obama's Presidency and the perhaps 480 images that will be published soon in the book you realize that not all images were meant to publish, printed, exhibited or be seen.

When archiving it should be understood that the value of an image has to stand a test of time, and it is with this foresight that an "archive" is built to draw upon.

I agree with you that it is rather impractical to think I will print all these images. Having an archive is a valuable resource, and I think I have enough to keep me busy for my remaining lifetime.

Since I am a gentrifier who has been displaced repeatedly here in NYC, my creation of my archive means that even when I'm displaced totally out of the city due to retirement and fixed income that I can take a part of NYC with me wherever I am in the world.

My work/archive has a deeper meaning that many did not understand. I'm not so crazy after all. There is thoughful logic to my process, and it has been fun and exciting as well as a personal challenge.

Also add onto those 7K rolls of film (135 and 120) five years of shooting with a Leica Monochrom. With the digital images I did a rough cut and deleted many to save file space.

Cal

 

[cz23]

I'm wondering who owns the rights to Souza's photographs. Typically, the photographer retains rights. But would his be in the public domain?

John

 

[Calzone]

I'm wondering who owns the rights to Souza's photographs. Typically, the photographer retains rights. But would his be in the public domain?

John

John,

Evidently Pete Souza owns the rights, otherwise he could not of used his archive to publish his book as being the Official Whitehouse Photographer for President Obama's two terms.

What I got out of Pete Souza's interview that impressed me the most was his work ethic. He is a very impressive photographer because he works so hard. We are all wimps in comparasion.

Cal

 

[cz23]

Regarding Winogrand's 2500 unprocessed rolls, it is said that most came from his final years in LA, years that are considered a tragic story of creative decline. His friend Todd Papageorge says Winogrand was lost and lived in a "trance or fugue state." Something was happening mentally (and soon physically).

It's true that he preferred to wait a while to review his images. But the backlog at the end was something else. Personally, I think it's a sad end to an incredible talent. So many great artists are eccentric, obsessive, compulsive. To mock them for personal qualities or methods, as Coleman does, seems petty to me. Winogrand was a modest man of strong conviction who produced an amazing body of work and has had a huge impact on contemporary photography. Whether his work appeals to you personally or not doesn't matter. People deserve respect for their artistic integrity and contributions. We all also deserve empathy for our misfortunes.

John

 

[davidnewtonguitars]

This is how I view most of what passes for street photography. Now I'm no photographer, and I think it is fun to work down a busy street and take random shots, almost in a frenzy. Works out that the frenzy part is more memorable than most of the pictures. The memorable pictures turn out to be the ones where I stop and chat with a person, then ask if I can take their picture and slowly get it.

I've never understood the appeal of Winogrand. I think he was just "annointed" and no one ever questions it. Lots of photographers better than him. I think he appeals to a certain "type" of person, but that person is not me.

 

[gns]

Regarding Winogrand's 2500 unprocessed rolls, it is said that most came from his final years in LA, years that are considered a tragic story of creative decline. His friend Todd Papageorge says Winogrand was lost and lived in a "trance or fugue state." Something was happening mentally (and soon physically).

It's true that he preferred to wait a while to review his images. But the backlog at the end was something else. Personally, I think it's a sad end to an incredible talent. So many great artists are eccentric, obsessive, compulsive. To mock them for personal qualities or methods, as Coleman does, seems petty to me. Winogrand was a modest man of strong conviction who produced an amazing body of work and has had a huge impact on contemporary photography. Whether his work appeals to you personally or not doesn't matter. People deserve respect for their artistic integrity and contributions. We all also deserve empathy for our misfortunes.

John

Well put, John.

 

[Calzone]

Well put, John.

Plus one.

Cal

 

[willie_901]

Regarding Winogrand's 2500 unprocessed rolls, it is said that most came from his final years in LA, years that are considered a tragic story of creative decline. His friend Todd Papageorge says Winogrand was lost and lived in a "trance or fugue state." Something was happening mentally (and soon physically).

It's true that he preferred to wait a while to review his images. But the backlog at the end was something else. Personally, I think it's a sad end to an incredible talent. So many great artists are eccentric, obsessive, compulsive. To mock them for personal qualities or methods, as Coleman does, seems petty to me. Winogrand was a modest man of strong conviction who produced an amazing body of work and has had a huge impact on contemporary photography. Whether his work appeals to you personally or not doesn't matter. People deserve respect for their artistic integrity and contributions. We all also deserve empathy for our misfortunes.

John

GW's behavior during his final years in LA is well documented. He was ill. Well before his cancer diagnosis, his technical skills had degraded and many of those negatives are useless. Film that was developed suffered from errors and mishandling. GW was in decline.

It seems to me what happened at the end of GW's life has no relevance to his earlier work, i.e. before he was injured in Austin.

 

[ptpdprinter]

GW's behavior during his final years in LA is well documented. He was ill. Well before his cancer diagnosis, his technical skills had degraded and many of those negatives are useless. Film that was developed suffered from errors and mishandling. GW was in decline.

It seems to me what happened at the end of GW's life has no relevance to his earlier work, i.e. before he was injured in Austin.

And yet people have embraced the way he worked at the end of his life as a virtue. Curious.

 

[Calzone]

And yet people have embraced the way he worked at the end of his life as a virtue. Curious.

PTP,

I'm almost 60 years old. Pretty much I'm considering both my mortality and my immortality. At this age, more than half my life is over and one does not know how many decades are left. From my persepective I only have a few decades left, perhaps only two if I live the average life expectancy. And I have come to believe that a decade is not really a long time.

Meanwhile most people live paycheck to paycheck and have other worries.

I am pretty sure most people do not enjoy my positionality of approaching retirement age and the disturbing worries of living on fixed income and aging, and I'm pretty certain that most people cannot extend themselves outside their own lives to see someone else's situation with understanding.

I do see and admire some beauty in GW's frantic ending. It is sad and tragic, but I appreciate his struggle.

Cal

 

[gns]

And yet people have embraced the way he worked at the end of his life as a virtue. Curious.

Elaborate or present some evidence??

 

[Calzone]

I also recognize the compulsive, obsessive in myself that seems to be associated with photographers that exposes a fixation. I see this behavior in many photographers. I struggle to understand these motavations not only in myself but in other photographers and even extend this to other artists.

My guess is that this does not interest you and is not a concern.

I don't think Peter Souza had to take 2 million pictures to do his job. How many of his images will never be seen or be deleted? How many already have? How has the passage of time helped or hindered the editing process? How many shots that were just ordinary when taken will became iconic or important historically?

Was not Peter Souza's work ethic excessive and obsessive? Was it a rare and unique opportunity?

2 million shots to create a book with say 480 images. Would you call this spray and pray?

Cal

 

[ptpdprinter]

Elaborate or present some evidence??

Well, Calzone for one. He exposed 7000 rolls of film. He has processed them but they remain unedited.

I work differently. I shoot, process edit print, shoot, process, edit, print. It is an iterative process. Others may work differently.

 

[Calzone]

Well, Calzone for one. He exposed 7000 rolls of film. He has processed them but they remain unedited.

I work differently. I shoot, process edit print, shoot, process, edit, print. It is an iterative process. Others may work differently.

PTP,

Another is Peter Souza who shot extensively for eight years and in the ninth year edited a book that at this time might not have been released yet.

The moral of the story here is that some bodies of work evolve over different timelines.

Vivian Mayer is another example. Mucho film exposed and never developed. I think her work is kinda historical and is also street photography.

I have another example of when I did a GW. In this case I shot a roll of color film. This was unusual for me because other than for my gal's blog I am exclusively a B&W only shooter. So after September 11th 2001 I went to the prominade in Brooklyn Heights and photographed the flowers and candles set up as memorials for the victums and families.

This single roll of film stayed in my fridge for many years. In a way I was avoiding the pain, the reminder, and the memories; but one day I dropped off the film at Duggal and explained the many years in the delay in processing. I knew the images would be degraded; I new the colors would display a mired shift; but I also knew these images were important.

I realized that these images would hurt and haunt me, and this was the justification for the delayed processing. Sadly one of the victums I went to college with. Glen was a first responder working as a photographer for the NYPD. I would learn many years later after September 11th 2001 that Glen was killed that day.

More recently I learned a friend named Larry from high school that his younger brother, Perry, was in the NYPD and died later of September 11th related Cancer.

Many might say that these photo's resemble the inferior IQ of say a Polaroid's saturated colors yet compressed dynamic range, but they have a very odd and strange beauty when a context loans an understanding of how these poor images were made. Not my best work by any means.

Cal

 

[MrFujicaman]

Sometimes the reason for delaying processing is logistics. When I was processing film in the bathroom, I had to clear stuff out of the way,set up the water bath for keeping the chemicals at temp, etc. It was such a PITA that I waited until I had several rolls-ie a 5 roll Paterson and a 3 roll also.
Now that I have a darkroom I process more often and can now contact print the stuff I've been shooting the last few years.