David Alan Harvey on Leica M10 and iPhone

[xixi_gelly]

Genius! The sink it is.

Indeed my interest is in many things before it is in gear. That's not to be mistaken for me condemning folks who are into a gear. It's just not where my interest lays.

I do wish there was a section of this forum that was more focused on the making and distribution of images as there are members here that I enjoy maintaining contact with. I suppose it is what it is. Thanx for creating the Camerawork thread, in case I haven't thanked you already.

I also feel very grateful for PKR's camerawork thread and wish there were more like it. Instead there are thread upon thread of "50lux vs cron vs noctilux which should I buy" etc etc but oh well. I like gear too and thumb through those threads more than I'd care to admit - no offense to anyone.

I want to ask, where do yall go to discuss photography and projects? I quite enjoyed Burn and the lively comments below each project but it seems to have slowed down. I like that LC showcases interesting (if uneven) work but it doesn't seem to have a forum, which seems like an oversight given that it is an active community

 

[Ko.Fe.]

... I would also say that for street type work where being low profile is important and being spotted will change the type of photo you get a phone is often an actively better tool than any camera. That shouldn't be a controversial position IMHO.

For street work it is important to be yourself. If you take ladies legs pictures from behind then been spotted is something important. And better to stay low profile. If you are open person and taking pictures because you are taking it as the work, then you will start to take street pictures as Winogrand did. And then you will learn more about people and how candid worth of the print is actually taken.

It is hard to believe me because I have no pro title attached, but if you are trying to sneak some pictures with mobile phone, first they will be crappily framed and second once you get caught of sneaking pictures, you will be in much more trouble instead if you taking pictures of people openly.

You could act as tourist with any size and profile of the camera, BTW. And some people are more alarmed by mobile phones. "You are going to post me on Facebook".

 

[Steveh]

For street work it is important to be yourself. If you take ladies legs pictures from behind then been spotted is something important. And is better to stay low profile. If you are open person and taking pictures because you are taking it as the work, then you will start to take street pictures as Winogrand did. And then you will learn more about people and how candid worth of the print is actually taken.

It is hard to believe me because I have no pro title attached, but if you are trying to sneak some pictures with mobile phone, first they will be crappily framed and second once you get caught of sneaking pictures, you will be in much more trouble instead if you taking pictures of people openly.

You could act as tourist with any size and profile of the camera, BTW. And some people are more alarmed by mobile phones. "You are going to post me on Facebook".

I actually agree completely with what you say about not being sneaky, what I meant was that people taking photos with cellphones is so much part of the visual "background noise" in any urban environment that I think it's much easier to disappear in plain sight while snapping away quite openly with a cellphone than with any kind of "real" camera, and that can be helpful at times.

 

[Ko.Fe.]

I actually agree completely with what you say about not being sneaky, what I meant was that people taking photos with cellphones is so much part of the visual "background noise" in any urban environment that I think it's much easier to disappear in plain sight while snapping away quite openly with a cellphone than with any kind of "real" camera, and that can be helpful at times.

I was only telling how people on the street feels about low profile pictures taken on mobile phone. It is based on articles published in Toronto medias and on what I have learn with my years of taking candid photos on the streets of Canada.

I'm not only posting much, I'm also taking pictures and printing them to show on-line. "Low profile" is misunderstanding. People will notice what you are taking their pictures with mobile phone just as they will notice you taking pictures with any other imaging device as soon as you'll try to frame it right.
The reaction then is often different, if it is done with mobile phone, people often assume what their image is for public posting on FB, if not instantly posted already.

Here I openly walked and took candid pictures of people for 10KM and more than two hours. I took it with film Leica as part of my project in documenting annual events in this area. I did it openly and interacting sometimes. No low profile. The only comment I get in two plus hours was ... "We are on TV!":

 

[PKR]

I also feel very grateful for PKR's camerawork thread and wish there were more like it. Instead there are thread upon thread of "50lux vs cron vs noctilux which should I buy" etc etc but oh well. I like gear too and thumb through those threads more than I'd care to admit - no offense to anyone.

I want to ask, where do yall go to discuss photography and projects? I quite enjoyed Burn and the lively comments below each project but it seems to have slowed down. I like that LC showcases interesting (if uneven) work but it doesn't seem to have a forum, which seems like an oversight given that it is an active community

I can't think of a web based place where talk about photography happens much. Not one that I know of anyway. Over on Large Format it happens/happened a bit, but those threads were often taken over or "conducted" by one member who thought himself the big fish in the pond.

Threads on this forum wander around. The really tech ones might not, I don't know, I don't read them. NWman did a good thing by starting this one. But, this forum has some members who find an issue with something in almost every photo (as opposed to camera) related thread.

A real photo community is the place to have your work looked it. Workshops offer this in an intense time period. And, you pay to play. A real photo community serves this 'purpose for most of us. emraphoto has one.

I can only describe my photo community..real people, and hope you, who make pictures, have something similar, or look for something similar. Currently, they are all men, though the wives or girlfriends are often painters or graphic designers. One is a studio photographer who mostly does table top work. 0ne is a sports photographer who photographs mostly football/soccer and has AD clients related to that sport. One is a pretty famous "art" photographer, who is booking several international one man shows yearly now. One is a photographer (part time) and an executive for one of the big 3 camera cos. One photographer does "Scientific Photography". His wife is a successful painter. There are some others who move in and out of our little group. The other members who are seen often are painters. We all get along, help each other out, etc. We've all known each other for more than ten years. It's a great bunch of people. I don't think a web forum can substitute for this. But the web has a great reach and can attract some very nice and knowledgeable people. The more threads, like this one, that come around, the more presence photography will have in the web "camera world".

 

[Michael Markey]

Maybe this is the time to say thanks for the thread Mitch.
I wouldn`t be too disheartened ..... I for one found it interesting.

I know little about DAH but follow him on FB and generally find his approach refreshing although Burn, by and large, isn`t my cup of tea.

I`d give him the benefit of the doubt when comes to his workshops.
If you come away from them having accomplished more than you thought you were capable of ,with a fresh perspective and a good time thrown in ... well that would be money well spent.

 

[ptpdprinter]

I`d give him the benefit of the doubt when comes to his workshops. I you come away from them having accomplished more than you thought you were capable of ,with a fresh perspective and a good time thrown in ... well that would be money well spent.

The $3400 (plus travel, lodging, meals, and personal expenses) "if". Frankly, I am not motivated by bullying and humiliation, so I would pass on his workshops.

 

[sjones]

Harvey’s advice was sage, especially if the person was saving to buy a US$7,000 camera; that is, you can still get an extremely capable camera, even in regards to specs, for far less.

Of course, what one wants to buy and for whatever reason is their business, and thanks to egregious income inequality, their are folks who view US$7,000 like I do one dollar.

Personally, I hate the ergonomics of cameraphones and, moreover, they don’t use film. Still, during my initial jump into photography as a serious hobby, I read through a basic photography book that featured a photographer who used a sub-one megapixel cameraphone to take some great photos…an early but vital lesson.

And not just in terms of the importance of skill, but also needs. That is, response to using a low resolution cameraphone, Holga, or such would trigger (on another site) responses like, “Let’s see how well that prints big” or “Let’s see how well that works on the sidelines,” as though a photo that I thought perfectly decent should be, perhaps metaphysically, rendered horrible because it couldn’t be successfully enlarged…not that anyone in the world had any need or desire to use it for a massive print.

So Harvey’s point warrants consideration. Still, his criticism of the person’s work was, I thought, petty, or at least unnecessary.

For one thing, who’s to say what photographs say, since they don’t tell stories…it’s the viewer to decide what they will personally infer, unless, of course, accompanying text guides them towards a more complete and descriptive narrative.

God knows what I’m trying to say with my photos, I just like taking pictures. And God also knows that we don’t need every photographer to be proselytizing about this or that…there’s absolutely room for it, possibly even a vital sociocultural need for it, but it’s not every photographers’ duty.

 

[Ko.Fe.]

Selling workshop statement by me means nothing but act of marketing. Telling to person what iPhone will do for seminar and money are better spend on paying for seminar rather than for M10 is the act of selling. It is part where it is good.
The bad part is to insist what no difference between iPhone and M10 is visible on large book prints. It is bad marketing trick, because is is false on technical side. And it is not offensive to suggest what person making this assumptions on IQ is not lair, but person who needs eyes to be checked.

Cheers, Ko.

 

[Corran]

The funny thing is that this entire thread is (was?) predicated on the discussion of gear (iPhone vs. Leica), not photography.

 

[Michael Markey]

The $3400 (plus travel, lodging, meals, and personal expenses) "if". Frankly, I am not motivated by bullying and humiliation, so I would pass on his workshops.

Oh I agree .... it could be an expensive "if".

 

[35photo]

As I've followed this thread from the beginning... I have my opinions on DAH as a photographer and I also have a friend who took one of his workshops as well..to mixed reviews from him as well as others in the workshop... DAH assertion thats its more about vision than gear in my mind is correct...

It was rather petty as some else said of him to slam the persons Instagram feed as well. How did DAH know that was a accurate representation of this persons work? It could have been just a stream of random photos with no theme or idea behind them... totally valid and nothing wrong with doing that... No need to slam the this persons Instagram photos...

Everything else that has been said about him "selling his workshop" is debatable... To the of IQ of a iPhone vs M10 or GFX... This was always about vision and about developing it and nothing to do with gear... I know gear was mentioned and we are on a gear forum I get it... Folks that keep bring up gear are totally blind sorry... DAH comments have nothing to do with gear.

 

[ptpdprinter]

I have an iPhone 4. It is a hand-me-down from my wife, which was a hand me down from my daughter. I prefer not to take photos with it. I can't hold the damn thing steady, and I find the fixed focal length limiting. The 5MP sensor lacks the quality I am looking for. Although the new iPhone 7 has a 12MP sensor and is surely better, I have no interest in upgrading my phone qua phone. I also don't like using cameras without viewfinders (or ground glass), and the iPhone falls in that category. It's not how I see. I am not saying that you can't take photographs with an iPhone, and even make a book from them, but the iPhone as a tool is not for me. Everyone has their quirks. If you want to use an iPhone for your photography, have at it.

 

[PKR]

Corran;

Re: "The funny thing is that this entire thread is (was?) predicated on the discussion of gear (iPhone vs. Leica), not photography." (when I used the Quote button, it copied 3 previous posts)

Yeah, you're right. That is, if you consider the iPhone gear; which seems to trouble some here. To many, a photo (better if printed for me) is less important than the means used to make it. I don't agree with this. Take this iPhone (questionable gear) and compare it to a sacred Leica and a flame will start on this forum. It was predictable. The" iPhone vs M10" was in the header. Without being able to edit now, these things can't be corrected if the want was there.

Then, bring Seeing into the formula .. meaning some don't see as well as others, and some don't see at all, there is further trouble. And, there are those who believed the marketing people who told them that a more expensive camera will make them a better photographer. They now see Harvey telling them, their money is better spent on a week immersed in "Harvey Photo World + beer" as a better path to being better at photography, as some sort of huckster, who's after their camera money, and it's fuel for another crazy thread.

But, I don't think it's all bad. I've found, through this thread, a couple of additional people here, who are genuinely interested in photography. So, it was well worth the time.

 

[sjones]

The funny thing is that this entire thread is (was?) predicated on the discussion of gear (iPhone vs. Leica), not photography.

Well, actually it wasn't just about the two cameras in terms of side-by-side specs, but in their ability to function as effective cameras, which invariably brings up broader issues of "photography."

And in any event, making any type of comparison between a cameraphone and an expensive camera is understandably going to spur discussion in various directions.

To complain about digression on any internet thread is arguably an admirable but futile venture. But I digress...

 

[sojournerphoto]

This is one of my favourite books

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Andre-Kertesz-Polaroids-Andr%C3%A9-Kert%C3%A9sz/dp/0393065642

I find it calming and inspirational. Simple, beautiful, melancholic and yet still joyful.

 

[sjones]

...Everything else that has been said about him "selling his workshop" is debatable... To the of IQ of a iPhone vs M10 or GFX... This was always about vision and about developing it and nothing to do with gear... I know gear was mentioned and we are on a gear forum I get it... Folks that keep bring up gear are totally blind sorry... DAH comments have nothing to do with gear.

Yeah, even if he was pushing his services, his broader point wasn't necessarily wrong by any means.

So while debate of his intentions is fine, it shouldn't detract from his overall argument, which, as you noted, places value on vision.

Just in general, tools matter, no doubt about it. A pinhole camera isn't going to photograph of a bullet just as it evaporates an apple. But a pinhole camera has produced some of the finest photographs I've seen, and this is what’s often lost in gear-oriented discussions.

Likewise, never mind issues of image quality and other technical considerations, the subject matter that I choose to shoot with a rangefinder will differ in some cases than what I would shoot with a large format camera.

For me, personally, as in it might not apply to anyone else, it’s largely about ergonomics and design. A rangefinder fits my style of photography, and more specifically, it’s the tactility of a Leica M2 that made me favor it over my Bessa R2M…otherwise, the advantage, in some ways, could go to the Bessa, especially since they both accommodate the same lenses.

But no matter what camera I’m using, my limitations and faults are of my own doing, not that of the camera's. If I truly thought acquiring more modern technology would improve my photography, I would consider it…maybe.

Again, anyone is obviously free to buy what they want to buy; they don’t need to defend themselves. But I also know that when I started photography with a Canon DSLR, I read more than a few posts on various sites arguing that “if it ain’t L, it’s useless.”

To me now, it’s pretty comical, but at the time, it distorted the practical advice that I actually needed.

As such, for the sake of novices, I think that even in gear-centered discussions, it’s important to interject some perspective on what all of these specs and such mean in the overall scheme of good photography, however redundant and pious it might seem to certain veterans.

But of course, use what you need, use what you want…let’s just be happy for choice.

 

[emraphoto]

I also feel very grateful for PKR's camerawork thread and wish there were more like it. Instead there are thread upon thread of "50lux vs cron vs noctilux which should I buy" etc etc but oh well. I like gear too and thumb through those threads more than I'd care to admit - no offense to anyone.

I want to ask, where do yall go to discuss photography and projects? I quite enjoyed Burn and the lively comments below each project but it seems to have slowed down. I like that LC showcases interesting (if uneven) work but it doesn't seem to have a forum, which seems like an oversight given that it is an active community

Well, KoFe pointed out the gallery section, which works very well, and PKR has suggested we cook something up in 'camerawork'.

I'm on the road right now but I like the idea and with Stephen's blessing, I'm sure we can put something together. I'll hash it out with PKR over the coming days.

There are a couple of 'private' FB groups where working photojournalists chatter back and forth. You need an invite to post and reply but you can always check it out. The New Vulture Club is one

 

[airfrogusmc]

Yeah, even if he was pushing his services, his broader point wasn't necessarily wrong by any means.

So while debate of his intentions is fine, it shouldn't detract from his overall argument, which, as you noted, places value on vision.

Just in general, tools matter, no doubt about it. A pinhole camera isn't going to photograph of a bullet just as it evaporates an apple. But a pinhole camera has produced some of the finest photographs I've seen, and this is what’s often lost in gear-oriented discussions.

Likewise, never mind issues of image quality and other technical considerations, the subject matter that I choose to shoot with a rangefinder will differ in some cases than what I would shoot with a large format camera.

For me, personally, as in it might not apply to anyone else, it’s largely about ergonomics and design. A rangefinder fits my style of photography, and more specifically, it’s the tactility of a Leica M2 that made me favor it over my Bessa R2M…otherwise, the advantage, in some ways, could go to the Bessa, especially since they both accommodate the same lenses.

But no matter what camera I’m using, my limitations and faults are of my own doing, not that of the camera's. If I truly thought acquiring more modern technology would improve my photography, I would consider it…maybe.

Again, anyone is obviously free to buy what they want to buy; they don’t need to defend themselves. But I also know that when I started photography with a Canon DSLR, I read more than a few posts on various sites arguing that “if it ain’t L, it’s useless.”

To me now, it’s pretty comical, but at the time, it distorted the practical advice that I actually needed.

As such, for the sake of novices, I think that even in gear-centered discussions, it’s important to interject some perspective on what all of these specs and such mean in the overall scheme of good photography, however redundant and pious it might seem to certain veterans.

But of course, use what you need, use what you want…let’s just be happy for choice.

Well said and I also have seen some amazing photographs made with pinhole cameras and even an oatmeal box with hole in it. How about the camera obscure photos by Morell where the room become the camera? And some specific types of photography demand more specialized type of equipment. Having said that a friend of mine many years back did an amazing body of work with a holga.

I think the best camera in the world is the one you have with you when you see a photograph. The key is and always will be you have to see. No camera, at this point in time, can do that for you.

 

[Lss]

The funny thing is that this entire thread is (was?) predicated on the discussion of gear (iPhone vs. Leica), not photography.

Absolutely. The thread is posted in the M10 subforum and titled 'David Alan Harvey on Leica M10 and iPhone'. To me, it sounds like basis for gear discussion, or an attempt at a certain kind of fishing, rather than photography discussion.