Brian Legge
Veteran
From the photos (yours and the buyers), I'd view this as a miscommunication about the state of the lens or different definitions about 'clean'.
Most older lenses - particularly those which haven't had a recent and thorough CLA - will show all sorts of debris when shining a flashlight through against a dark background. None of it would show up in photos like the ones you took, looking through the lens against a white background.
At least personally, give the buyer the benefit of doubt and assume they thought the lens would be cleaner than it was. I don't see any intentional mistruths on either side here. Neither of you have a reason to compromise.
If I were in your place, I'd stick with the 'send it back for a full refund' offer and let them decide what to do. They can either keep it as is, take your offer or file a paypal claim (which will likely result in them sending it back for a refund - exactly as you offered).
Most older lenses - particularly those which haven't had a recent and thorough CLA - will show all sorts of debris when shining a flashlight through against a dark background. None of it would show up in photos like the ones you took, looking through the lens against a white background.
At least personally, give the buyer the benefit of doubt and assume they thought the lens would be cleaner than it was. I don't see any intentional mistruths on either side here. Neither of you have a reason to compromise.
If I were in your place, I'd stick with the 'send it back for a full refund' offer and let them decide what to do. They can either keep it as is, take your offer or file a paypal claim (which will likely result in them sending it back for a refund - exactly as you offered).
noisycheese
Normal(ish) Human
Same here.
eBay cares about eBay and their profits above all other considerations.
__jc
Well-known
Yes, sure. Even if, as a seller, you have no case to answer; even if you've done exactly the right thing and sent an item exactly as you described it, just refund the buyer and we're sweet. Terrific.
goamules
Well-known
That's right. Today's hobbiests and collectors of vintage items expect the same service from an individual seller that they get from megacorporations like Walmart. They want to "buy", then receive and handle the item and then "think about it". Often, they change their mind. But hey, you're a big, fancy seller that can write off these expenses, right? The buyer is ALWAYS right, correct? If they want a refund, or to send it back, it's at your expense and lost time. Not theirs for being flaky or dishonest.
CVickery
Established
Sorry, if this isn't an acceptable result you shouldn't be selling online. IMO the deal isn't finished until both seller and buyer are satisfied. It's true in a face-to-face deal, and it needs to be so in an online deal as well. Unfortunately, online, there are costs that both sides need to 'eat' if the deal falls apart. It's the price you pay for access to the broader market.
CVickery
Established
The buyer is responsible for the costs of return shipping, and the cheapest services don't work since a signature is required. If I'm willing pay out to return something, it's because there is a problem, not because I'm 'flaky or dishonest'.
goamules
Well-known
That's true too. When I sell, I write very clearly the condition. I will say if it has dust, slight haze et cetra. The problem comes when a buyer doesn't read the ad, because they don't speak English. Or their interpretation of "slight haze" doesn't match mine. Yet they still try to buy my item. I don't buy things from Chinese language websites, because I don't speak Chinese and so don't know what I'm getting. See the difference?
photomoof
Fischli & Weiss Sculpture
That is why I don't sell collectible cameras online.
We do live in an odd time, where many expect ancient cameras to function as though they were new. I always knew better, even mint, almost unused cameras, fall apart quickly if the expendable parts are not replaced.
Just to make the situation worse, there are no professionals who have replaced guys like Marty Forscher in NYC. Of course there is a solution -- fix your own stuff.
Rangefinder 35
Well-known
That's the way to deal with scheming buyer. I had that happen to me also. Sold a black Contax G2 to a buyer in Taiwan. He waited with the payment almost a week. Then he paid me on Saturday. Following Sunday he filed complaint with ebay that G2 hasn't arrived yet. Then, once he got the camera, it"Wasn't as descibed", and he wanted 400 dollars partial refund from me. I wrote to him that I don't issue partial refunds, and if he sends me camera back, I'll give him all the money he paid. He replied then that he doesn't want to do it because he "invested too much time and effort" in that camera. In the end he kept the camera without any refund, but what a pain...
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__jc
Well-known
It's not acceptable at all in the cases I illustrated. I have an Eboy feedback of over 620, many of those sales, and all but a couple where both parties have been happy. I know about both sides of the transaction being happy, as I have a 100% feedback rating. It doesn't mean I have to find the few times where things go against me as an honest seller acceptable.
But, hey, thanks a lot for taking the time to tell me how to run my end of things.
nomadia
Established
There's a lot of shady buyers on ebay. They'd keep the camera until the last week of what ebay allows, then contact you for a partial refund. Never fall for this partial refund scam. Refund, get the item back, and resell it to a deserving customer.
valdas
Veteran
And that is a problem with cheap items. Shipping back will cost more than an item and some sellers tend to abuse this situation. Of course, one would say - when you buy so cheap why would you care even if it's not as described, but cheap or expensive, it's still cheating. I once bought a dozen of "fresh" silver oxide batteries. When tested they all showed between 1.1-1.3V. They still worked, but I was not happy because I felt cheated. Seller said that my tester is bad because "other buyers were happy". Return cost (if signed for) were higher than the item cost. Partial refund was refused. That's it. I had to bite the bullet.
colyn
ישו משיח
So are you saying the seller should pay for the return??
eBay makes it clear the buyer is responsible even if the return cost is more than the purchase price..
I don't think the seller is abusing the situation. He simply is not responsible for return costs...
Ranchu
Veteran
Ebay makes it clear the seller is responsible for return shipping costs if the item is not as described, colyn. Ebay makes it clear. Although this was an odd situation because of the re-shipment. So, ebay makes it pretty clear the SELLER is responsible for return costs if the item is not as described. Ebay that is. Clear.
What I want to know is was the mark on the rear element there when the OP sent the lens, or is it a hair or something?
What I want to know is was the mark on the rear element there when the OP sent the lens, or is it a hair or something?
Manuel Patino
Established
I had a similar experience with a buyer from another forum. I sold a very nice M43 pro line zoom for a very competitive price. Lens was in perfect condition except for a minuscule bit of dirt here and there from using it (I don't keep gear in boxes inside locked cabinets, I shoot photos with it). Anyway, he complained and complained wanting a reduction in price. That basically teed me off and I offered immediate refund upon return of the lens at his expense, but not one cent of price adjustment.
He kept on insisting on price adjustment and I stood firm on my offer of full refund upon return. I also pointed out that he had already kept and used the lens for weeks and I deserved rental fees if he did not return it immediately... Naturally he kept the lens but gave me a bad review!!
If you did everything by the book, you can stand your ground and offer refund upon return in the same condition as you sent it.
He kept on insisting on price adjustment and I stood firm on my offer of full refund upon return. I also pointed out that he had already kept and used the lens for weeks and I deserved rental fees if he did not return it immediately... Naturally he kept the lens but gave me a bad review!!
If you did everything by the book, you can stand your ground and offer refund upon return in the same condition as you sent it.
johannielscom
Snorting silver salts
enasniearth
Well-known
This must be a recent change .
The buyer is always responsible for return cost in the past .
The cost of the return shipping is the price to see the item in person .
Everyone's grading of condition varies .
The buyer is always responsible for return cost in the past .
The cost of the return shipping is the price to see the item in person .
Everyone's grading of condition varies .
Ranchu
Veteran
If the buyer says the item is not as described, ebay will give them a png paid return shipping label to print out and stick on the returned package, and takes the money out of the sellers account to pay for it. Think of it as a little extra encouragement to the seller to describe the item accurately, and clearly. Though this particular specific situation is likely different because of the re-shipping, I don't know.
colyn
ישו משיח
Interesting.....
I won a dispute on a camera that was not as advertised recently. eBay's instructions to me were to ship it back with tracking and once I forward the tracking to them (eBay) my paypal account would be refunded. My original purchase price and shipping was refunded once the package was delivered but I'm still out the return shipping.. When I called eBay I was told return shipping is my responsibility...
enasniearth
Well-known
Interesting ,
I know ebay was trying to get sellers to pay shipping both ways in the event of a dispute , however I thought that was something you had to sign onto and there was an incentive offered .
Ebay is trying to be another amazon .
It was best when it was the worlds largest garage sale .
When an item seems too low in price , well you have to expect it to cost
The return shipping to check it out .
I seldom return items , many of the items I bid on are rare , or unusual .
Obviously when some gives a glowing account of a lens and there is fungus and scratches , the item is not as described .
But there are a group of crazy's that can find the smallest fault with a near perfect item .why should the seller eat the shipping both ways , when dealing with them ?
If I get an item I feel is not great I offer to pay shipping both ways , as a buyer I think this is fair .
I know ebay was trying to get sellers to pay shipping both ways in the event of a dispute , however I thought that was something you had to sign onto and there was an incentive offered .
Ebay is trying to be another amazon .
It was best when it was the worlds largest garage sale .
When an item seems too low in price , well you have to expect it to cost
The return shipping to check it out .
I seldom return items , many of the items I bid on are rare , or unusual .
Obviously when some gives a glowing account of a lens and there is fungus and scratches , the item is not as described .
But there are a group of crazy's that can find the smallest fault with a near perfect item .why should the seller eat the shipping both ways , when dealing with them ?
If I get an item I feel is not great I offer to pay shipping both ways , as a buyer I think this is fair .