msbarnes
Well-known
I've been searching for a Leica alternative for the past half year but I give up. I don't think there is any. I'm going to save up for a few months and go M and get things over with.
I haven't searched too hard but I've gone through a Konica Auto S2, Canon P, some Retina IIIc/C's, and a Retina IIIs. None of them have really made me happy except the Retina folders, which I LOVE for their compactness but Leica substitute they aren't.
The Konica Auto S2 lens was great, but the camera felt cheap and it even broke.
The Canon P build was great, but the patch was not that great.
The Retina IIIc is awesome, but it's a folder and not quick to the draw.
The Retina IIIs build was great, but the patch was just OK.
I thought I'd give a Bessa a try but I think I'll just be left wanting more. I'll probably be getting an M2 or M3 depending on whether I make 35mm or 50mm my standard. In the meantime I'll just wait or go Barnack with some nice LTM glass that I can use on my future M.
I haven't searched too hard but I've gone through a Konica Auto S2, Canon P, some Retina IIIc/C's, and a Retina IIIs. None of them have really made me happy except the Retina folders, which I LOVE for their compactness but Leica substitute they aren't.
The Konica Auto S2 lens was great, but the camera felt cheap and it even broke.
The Canon P build was great, but the patch was not that great.
The Retina IIIc is awesome, but it's a folder and not quick to the draw.
The Retina IIIs build was great, but the patch was just OK.
I thought I'd give a Bessa a try but I think I'll just be left wanting more. I'll probably be getting an M2 or M3 depending on whether I make 35mm or 50mm my standard. In the meantime I'll just wait or go Barnack with some nice LTM glass that I can use on my future M.
swoop
Well-known
That's the biggest thing Leica has going for it, there's nothing else like it.
Wait. You're looking for a Leica substitute, and you've decided not to try the one current in-production competitor (which many people swear by)? That just seems strange.
Johann Espiritu
Lawyer / Ninja
I use an M6, M7, M9 and Bessa R2A. While the Bessa falls behind in build quality from the Leicas (as it should, considering the price) and the shutter sounds nowhere as silent, it is not a bad camera at all. I finder the viewfinder bright and clear, the patch contrasty (albeit sometimes easy to knock out of alignment), and it feels great in your hand. I enjoy using it when I take it out for a spin - and I do get a lot of compliments on how cool it looks.
I've also tried the Zeiss Ikon, and it feels great too.
Both are great alternatives to a Leica M. Of course, all of that being said, if you do want to end up with a Leica M in your bag at some time, then there is no substitute.
I've also tried the Zeiss Ikon, and it feels great too.
Both are great alternatives to a Leica M. Of course, all of that being said, if you do want to end up with a Leica M in your bag at some time, then there is no substitute.
msbarnes
Well-known
Well I was browsing keh.com today and I checked some prices:
Leica CL(BRG) 379
Leica M2(BRG) 645
Leica M3(BRG) 645
Bessa R (EX) 286
I'm not too sure how much the Bessa R2 and R3's go for but I figured that it would be somewhere in between. And after iterating through more and more on cameras, I figured that there is a reason why Leica has such a strong cult following.
I made a similar transition from my Mamiya TLR to 'Flex. It feels good to finally get one. Not necessarily for the optics but for the body/build/ergonomics.
Leica CL(BRG) 379
Leica M2(BRG) 645
Leica M3(BRG) 645
Bessa R (EX) 286
I'm not too sure how much the Bessa R2 and R3's go for but I figured that it would be somewhere in between. And after iterating through more and more on cameras, I figured that there is a reason why Leica has such a strong cult following.
I made a similar transition from my Mamiya TLR to 'Flex. It feels good to finally get one. Not necessarily for the optics but for the body/build/ergonomics.
philipus
ʎɐpɹəʇɥƃı&
Reminds me of the quote from Jackie Brown about the AK-47 "(...) accept no substitutes".
Yes the M are amazingly well built.
What would your budget be? If you are unsure of whether to use 35 or 50 your main focal length, then go for a body that takes both. I would personally have chosen the M4 over the M2.
Btw - and I realise it may not be what you're after - Classic Cameras (CA) has a CL with the great 40 Summicron for $650.
Yes the M are amazingly well built.
What would your budget be? If you are unsure of whether to use 35 or 50 your main focal length, then go for a body that takes both. I would personally have chosen the M4 over the M2.
Btw - and I realise it may not be what you're after - Classic Cameras (CA) has a CL with the great 40 Summicron for $650.
Mackinaw
Think Different
You may want to consider a Canon 7 or 7s or a Nikon SP. All three are fine 35mm rangefinders.
But I understand your predicament. I succumbed to the Leica spell many years back.
Jim B.
But I understand your predicament. I succumbed to the Leica spell many years back.
Jim B.
Godfrey
somewhat colored
Nice as other cameras can be, there's nothing quite like a Leica M. I picked up my M4-2 at a fair price, put a Skopar 50 or 35 mm lens on it, and just enjoy it too much to worry about wanting anything else. I'd like to get an old Elmar 5.0 or 3.5 cm lens for it too, for the difference in rendering qualities, but I'm in no rush.
ferider
Veteran
The only camera I found coming close to an M[23] is the Canon P, in particular for 50mm. You might want to try another copy - there are two in the classifieds currently.
I said "close", a good M2 or M3 is hard to substitute. There are lots of damaged copies around, I recommend to shop carefully and find one without separation and good patch contrast - the later serial number, the better. If you decide to go that route, a couple of hundred bucks in addition (CLA or return privileges) might make a big difference in getting you a camera that you will like.
Roland.
I said "close", a good M2 or M3 is hard to substitute. There are lots of damaged copies around, I recommend to shop carefully and find one without separation and good patch contrast - the later serial number, the better. If you decide to go that route, a couple of hundred bucks in addition (CLA or return privileges) might make a big difference in getting you a camera that you will like.
Roland.
sepiareverb
genius and moron
And the current Zeiss Ikon.
gb hill
Veteran
Funny it all worked out being the opposite for me. At the Atlanta RFF meet last spring I got to fondle & look through many different Leica. M's. Too me my little Bessa R had the best vf. I wasn't impressed with the Leica hype from that point on. Also I didn't like the weight of having to carrying the Leica all day long. Much prefer the lightweight of my Bessa. You just had better make sure you get the right vf magnification for your eyes. I did get the chance to look at a Zeiss Ikon & IMO is a better camera than an M.
willie_901
Veteran
Three words: Zeiss Ikon M.
Oh wait, you're going on an extended documentary project and if your camera falls out of the back of the Land Rover you'll be in trouble. You need the Leica. The finder won't be as good, but the Leica is tougher.
Oh wait, you're going on an extended documentary project and if your camera falls out of the back of the Land Rover you'll be in trouble. You need the Leica. The finder won't be as good, but the Leica is tougher.
ferider
Veteran
Define good.
Bright viewfinder, loud shutter, no shutter holes -> 2 Bessas or one ZI
High patch contrast, quiet shutter, lens caps -> Leica
Batteries or not - who cares. Being able to adjust the RF with a simple screwdriver on a long trip helps.
ampguy
Veteran
I'd go with a Bessa - brighter VF, no VF flare like M4-2s, 6s, 7s. 2x faster shutter speed. 10x faster film loading. Can find a diopter in your bag of old Nikon slr parts, no $100 cost here. Less conspicuous when shooting. Lighter, can carry all day. No rewind jams at the 13th frame. No need for frequent CLA's. Costs 1/5th of a Leica.
I'd avoid the Canon P's. Everyone says the shutter wrinkles are no problem, then they come back after taking photos and wonder what the light leaks are all about.
I'd avoid the Canon P's. Everyone says the shutter wrinkles are no problem, then they come back after taking photos and wonder what the light leaks are all about.
dof
Fiat Lux
Hi Ted,
Can you elaborate on this note? I have had one rewind jam in 14 years of use with an M6 TTL. As Murphy would have it, this happened during a trip and the loss of those frames and some shooting time was frustrating to say the least.
Your comment is so specific that I wonder if you have further info on the exact cause of the jam.
As for the original post, I have to admit that I caved in without even trying the alternatives. I've no regrets about it at all.
Thanks,
ampguy
Veteran
msbarnes
Well-known
I'll wait a while and see if I can get a hold of a Leica to see good the viewfinder/rangefinders can really be. I've never handled one but I'd probably get one off of keh.com because returns are easy.
I handled two Canon P's and owned one shortly so I assumed that the rangefinder patches have just aged poorly or were inherently dim to begin with. Maybe it was two bad samples... I don't think I'm looking for a fantastic patch per se because I was mostly* fine focusing with the Konica Auto S2. I would have kept the P if it were as good as the Konica Auto S2.
My Retina IIIc and 120 German Folders are much easier to focus because the patches are nice and contrasty but i wanted something that was ready-to-shoot. I thought that a IIIs would be what I was looking for, but it wasn't. The viewfinder is larger, but the patch is less contrasty although a bit better than the P. I thought maybe a Barnack but then I was unsure how I'd like the dual viewfinder/rangefinder. I thought Bessa too but the inferior build quality might leave me wanting more.
The IIIs is my favorite so far, but far from perfect so I might keep it until I have the funds to go M. Or I might try Canon LTM so that I can use the same set of lenses. If I go canon LTM is the patch on the 7 better than the P? In general, that is.
I handled two Canon P's and owned one shortly so I assumed that the rangefinder patches have just aged poorly or were inherently dim to begin with. Maybe it was two bad samples... I don't think I'm looking for a fantastic patch per se because I was mostly* fine focusing with the Konica Auto S2. I would have kept the P if it were as good as the Konica Auto S2.
My Retina IIIc and 120 German Folders are much easier to focus because the patches are nice and contrasty but i wanted something that was ready-to-shoot. I thought that a IIIs would be what I was looking for, but it wasn't. The viewfinder is larger, but the patch is less contrasty although a bit better than the P. I thought maybe a Barnack but then I was unsure how I'd like the dual viewfinder/rangefinder. I thought Bessa too but the inferior build quality might leave me wanting more.
The IIIs is my favorite so far, but far from perfect so I might keep it until I have the funds to go M. Or I might try Canon LTM so that I can use the same set of lenses. If I go canon LTM is the patch on the 7 better than the P? In general, that is.
35mmdelux
Veni, vidi, vici
Get an Leica R4 [or newer] with a 50 Summicron. Compact slr, great glass and its cheap while not sacrificing quality. [Salgado shot with R6]
back alley
IMAGES
i owned a brand new leica m4-p and a used m3, double stroke.
both fine cameras but i never got the 'bite'...sold them both and was quite happy with a zm, 3 canon p bodies and currently shooting with 2 rd1s.
they all help us to make images...even my d90...
both fine cameras but i never got the 'bite'...sold them both and was quite happy with a zm, 3 canon p bodies and currently shooting with 2 rd1s.
they all help us to make images...even my d90...
There are many options but the solid mechanical feel of a well-tuned Leica is unmatched. Leicas don't need constant CLAs unless the camera was previously abused. A decent camera in good shape with a CLA by a competent tech, and not abused thereafter, will go many many years without needing another.
My ideal would be an M with a back that opens like a CLE or a Zeiss Ikon. Since that will never happen, I have an M4 and a CLE.
My ideal would be an M with a back that opens like a CLE or a Zeiss Ikon. Since that will never happen, I have an M4 and a CLE.