orenrcohen
Established
I'm looking for lots of grain.. Mostly shooting Tri-X.. I had someone suggest Dektol for developing film.. Any thoughts?
JohnTF
Veteran
Development times may be too short for tank development with roll film, like one or two minutes?
I added a bit of sodium hydroxide once to dektol and got huge grain in prints developed. Be careful, it is also known as caustic soda or lye-- dangerous-- watch your eyes and hands -- but it seemed to remove restrainers--
D19 is a very active developer, that may give you the grain you are looking for, any of these old time developers, if not available, can be mixed up as the formulae should be published.
We used Dektol for sheet film in a tray, so the quick times were not a problem.
John
I added a bit of sodium hydroxide once to dektol and got huge grain in prints developed. Be careful, it is also known as caustic soda or lye-- dangerous-- watch your eyes and hands -- but it seemed to remove restrainers--
D19 is a very active developer, that may give you the grain you are looking for, any of these old time developers, if not available, can be mixed up as the formulae should be published.
We used Dektol for sheet film in a tray, so the quick times were not a problem.
John
browncycle
Readyville, TN
Temp and times
Temp and times
Lower water temps and longer times tend to smooth out film developers, and warmer temps and shorter times will grain it up. The kodak chart has (or used to have) the different times based on water temps.
Temp and times
Lower water temps and longer times tend to smooth out film developers, and warmer temps and shorter times will grain it up. The kodak chart has (or used to have) the different times based on water temps.
Krzys
Well-known
Rodinal and a lot of agitation.
Roger Hicks
Veteran
Pretty much any paper developer will work. Try it initially at half paper strength to avoid an unduly short dev time. Sorry: can't remember the times (it's decades since I tried it).
Overexposure also increases grain size.
Cheers,
R.
Overexposure also increases grain size.
Cheers,
R.
Jaans
Well-known
This topic recently came up if you get a chance to look in the archives.
From experience I would not recommend Dektol as the contrast can become extreme very quickly. Also remember that contrast and grain are not the same, even though both are increased through a rise in temp or increased development time.
So, if you use Dektol then you can lose those subtle mid tone grays - these are often difficult to maintain in a high contrast situation like a concert or under harsh street or restaurant lighting. For example if Dektol was used in one of these situation then you will not garner as a good quality negative as you might do with Microphen, TMAX or Rodinal.
Back to your question, how to maximise grain? Well you didn't mention what kind of contrast you want with this large grain. Like another poster suggested I would use Rodinal. It really is legendary for achieving wire sharp grain with TRI-X.
Here are some possible options:
1) So, you could go the Ralph Gibson option and use the dilution of 1:25 for 11minutes agitating once every 45 seconds at 20C, EI:100/200. I have used this dilution for 8 minutes and you can get great grain through this. I am a huge fan of his work (particularly the Sonnambulist, San Francisco and New York series - check out his website to view this grain in its raw beauty), but you have to remember that a lot of his early late 60's and early 70's work that garnered critical acclaim was using the older emulsion TRI-X that was definetely a different larger grained beast than what it is today.
There was once a magazine article that showed his negatives and the editor was remarking that he was surprised that he could get any light through them as they were so dense! He was not only over exposing by up to two stops, but also over developing by nearly 5 minutes (7 minutes is the time listed for EI: 400, so EI:200 will be shorter). He said that he liked the rough cinematic quality that this combination produces. Some people comment that his work is too high a contrast with minimal shadow detail, so refer to my comments at the top about the relationship between contrast and grain.
2) So, if you want a negative with a better tonal scale then go for the dilution of 1:50 at EI: 200/400for 12 minutes in contrasty light or 14 minutes in subdued light, that I sometimes use. I agitate twice a minute. This will allow the shadows to develop more.
3) BUT, if you wanted to achieve a superlatively large grain that is salt and pepper in look, then try Kodak T-MAX 32000 with Rodinal. Use it at EI: 600 outside in daylight for 9 minutes at 1:50 or EI: 1600 for 12 minutes (Nightime). Agitate twice at the start of every minute. It is preferable to slightly overexpose to achieve larger grain. Shooting at 1600 won't be overexposing as the true speed is reported at around 1000/1200.
4) Alternatively, use Ilford Delta 3200 with Rodinal. This has LESS contrast than its TMAX competitor so it all comes back to what kind of contrast you want in addition to that grain, as well as what kind of tonal scale. I develop it in Rodinal for the exact same times and dilutions as I do with the T-MAX 3200. I find that this has a fluffier popcorn grain than T-MAX's salt&pepper look. It just depends on the 'look' that you want to achieve.
5) But, if shooting either of these films at an EI higher than 1600, then use a speed enhancing developer like TMAX, Microphen or DDX, as the Rodinal won't get you there. Using these developers can get large grain as well, but not as large as you would get with Rodinal.
6) My favorite: Neopan 1600 at EI: 650 at dusk for a total time of 11 minutes with Rodinal 1t 1:50. Agitate the first 50 seconds (Fuji recommends the 1st minute which is different to Ilfords suggestion of the 1st 10 seconds and Kodak's recommendation of the 1st 30 seconds) then 3 agitations at the start of each minute for subdued lighting or 3 agitations for contrasty lighting with street lights. The true speed is reported to be about 650-800. Don't underexpose this film as you will lose that grain and things cen get contrasty if you try to compensate with extra time in the Rodinal.
The grain that this combination is to my eye beautiful, more so than Rodinal produces when drowning its faster cousins. Many comment on the cinematic quality that this film renders with D76, but with Rodinal it is something else.
Overexpose, overdevelop and use Rodinal with either of the four films I mentioned above. Experiment to find your preferred 'look of grain'.
Good luck with your grainy endeavours!
From experience I would not recommend Dektol as the contrast can become extreme very quickly. Also remember that contrast and grain are not the same, even though both are increased through a rise in temp or increased development time.
So, if you use Dektol then you can lose those subtle mid tone grays - these are often difficult to maintain in a high contrast situation like a concert or under harsh street or restaurant lighting. For example if Dektol was used in one of these situation then you will not garner as a good quality negative as you might do with Microphen, TMAX or Rodinal.
Back to your question, how to maximise grain? Well you didn't mention what kind of contrast you want with this large grain. Like another poster suggested I would use Rodinal. It really is legendary for achieving wire sharp grain with TRI-X.
Here are some possible options:
1) So, you could go the Ralph Gibson option and use the dilution of 1:25 for 11minutes agitating once every 45 seconds at 20C, EI:100/200. I have used this dilution for 8 minutes and you can get great grain through this. I am a huge fan of his work (particularly the Sonnambulist, San Francisco and New York series - check out his website to view this grain in its raw beauty), but you have to remember that a lot of his early late 60's and early 70's work that garnered critical acclaim was using the older emulsion TRI-X that was definetely a different larger grained beast than what it is today.
There was once a magazine article that showed his negatives and the editor was remarking that he was surprised that he could get any light through them as they were so dense! He was not only over exposing by up to two stops, but also over developing by nearly 5 minutes (7 minutes is the time listed for EI: 400, so EI:200 will be shorter). He said that he liked the rough cinematic quality that this combination produces. Some people comment that his work is too high a contrast with minimal shadow detail, so refer to my comments at the top about the relationship between contrast and grain.
2) So, if you want a negative with a better tonal scale then go for the dilution of 1:50 at EI: 200/400for 12 minutes in contrasty light or 14 minutes in subdued light, that I sometimes use. I agitate twice a minute. This will allow the shadows to develop more.
3) BUT, if you wanted to achieve a superlatively large grain that is salt and pepper in look, then try Kodak T-MAX 32000 with Rodinal. Use it at EI: 600 outside in daylight for 9 minutes at 1:50 or EI: 1600 for 12 minutes (Nightime). Agitate twice at the start of every minute. It is preferable to slightly overexpose to achieve larger grain. Shooting at 1600 won't be overexposing as the true speed is reported at around 1000/1200.
4) Alternatively, use Ilford Delta 3200 with Rodinal. This has LESS contrast than its TMAX competitor so it all comes back to what kind of contrast you want in addition to that grain, as well as what kind of tonal scale. I develop it in Rodinal for the exact same times and dilutions as I do with the T-MAX 3200. I find that this has a fluffier popcorn grain than T-MAX's salt&pepper look. It just depends on the 'look' that you want to achieve.
5) But, if shooting either of these films at an EI higher than 1600, then use a speed enhancing developer like TMAX, Microphen or DDX, as the Rodinal won't get you there. Using these developers can get large grain as well, but not as large as you would get with Rodinal.
6) My favorite: Neopan 1600 at EI: 650 at dusk for a total time of 11 minutes with Rodinal 1t 1:50. Agitate the first 50 seconds (Fuji recommends the 1st minute which is different to Ilfords suggestion of the 1st 10 seconds and Kodak's recommendation of the 1st 30 seconds) then 3 agitations at the start of each minute for subdued lighting or 3 agitations for contrasty lighting with street lights. The true speed is reported to be about 650-800. Don't underexpose this film as you will lose that grain and things cen get contrasty if you try to compensate with extra time in the Rodinal.
The grain that this combination is to my eye beautiful, more so than Rodinal produces when drowning its faster cousins. Many comment on the cinematic quality that this film renders with D76, but with Rodinal it is something else.
Overexpose, overdevelop and use Rodinal with either of the four films I mentioned above. Experiment to find your preferred 'look of grain'.
Good luck with your grainy endeavours!
Michael_k
Newbie
And all of it at 24°C.
Better you take HP5 and Rodinal at 1+25 at 24° C with lots of agitation.
Then the emulsion becomes very grainy.
Michael