Determining Validity of "Military" Camera

[LeicaTom]

Tom, when it returns would you please post some quality photos of the camera and it's engravings? Also, since it has an engraving "W.Haven" and you're in Winter Haven, it was just made for you to own it! Ciao!

Yes, REALLY FUNNY....when I first saw that engraving, I laughed too and said, ok it was made for Winter Haven, Florida 🙂

The cameras issued to the KM had various engravings at various times during the war, I am researching the issues with Jim Lager, it could have alot to do with the Military supplier/engraver who did what when etc.

When the camera`s back I`ll open a new thread with the story about my camera and also the search for the third and missing camera from this issued series.......

Tom

 

[George S.]

When the camera`s back I`ll open a new thread with the story about my camera and also the search for the third and missing camera from this issued series.......

Tom

Please do, that would be great to read. It's already an incredible story that you were able to locate two out of only three cameras issued 65 years ago; it would be extreme good luck (and great detective work) that the third is still around and you find it!

 

[LeicaTom]

Please do, that would be great to read. It's already an incredible story that you were able to locate two out of only three cameras issued 65 years ago; it would be extreme good luck (and great detective work) that the third is still around and you find it!

Yes, it will be hard to track the third camera, Jim and I are not 100% sure which lens was on it? *Which serial number?*
(I think 4 Xenon`s were issued that day to the Navy and 3 went on cameras)

I don`t have the entire shipment documented, this might take several months to get all the information together. (crosses fingers)

Tom

 

[LeicaTom]

Well, the camera`s back from Youxin Ye and has had a going over, here`s the results!

I`ll be posting it`s own thread here soon, about it`s history so this is the last post I`ll be posting here 🙂

It just goes to show that even now in 2009 there`s unusual and authentic WW2 Military cameras still out there to be found and verifying them, might take a long time,
(it took like 2 months of continuous hard research to verify this one)
but it`s worth the time and effort.

So there`s still historical cameras either in private collections or still hidden away in attics in Grandfather`s WW2 "Bring Back" items, so everyone keep your eyes open. 😉

Happy Searching!

Tom

 

[bobkatz]

Tom:
What can you tell me about my Xenon 490951 ?
maybe Im missing something about it...And now I see where your pretty photos came from
Best
Bob.

 

[LeicaTom]

Tom:
What can you tell me about my Xenon 490951 ?
maybe Im missing something about it...And now I see where your pretty photos came from
Best
Bob.

Well, Bob as I`ve said, I`d hold on to that one, it was more than likely a 1939/40 issue and then Postwar coated by someone in the US Army......

I think it`s on the Xenon list I gave to the person I know to check history, but I`m not 100% sure, I might or might not be able to trace that lenses history.

The Xenon is a super lens, it was "dogged" by people for years, but now the "art" crowd sees just what it`s good for, I love my Xenon`s! 😀

Tom

 

[bobkatz]

Well, Bob as I`ve said, I`d hold on to that one, it was more than likely a 1939/40 issue and then Postwar coated by someone in the US Army......

I think it`s on the Xenon list I gave to the person I know to check history, but I`m not 100% sure, I might or might not be able to trace that lenses history.

The Xenon is a super lens, it was "dogged" by people for years, but now the "art" crowd sees just what it`s good for, I love my Xenon`s! 😀

Tom

Tom:
Thanks a lot master...I will hold my xenon 🙄..
Please let me know if you discover some interesting about it...
Bob.

 

[FPjohn]

Hello Tom:

Is there any history on the ship/crew who picked up the UBook crew?

yours
FPJ

 

[LeicaTom]

Hello Tom:

Is there any history on the ship/crew who picked up the UBook crew?

yours
FPJ

Nope sadly there's no records/info to which U Boat it was, but I think only 20 or 25 boats or so, were attacked/captured/sunk by Canadian Naval Forces, with survivors ~ the rest were all destroyed beneath the waves, with complete loss of life.

According to Jim there was only like 10 or so of these IIIC/Xenon KM issued during the war and I know of at least 3 combos that survived. (it was quite possibly the rarest of all the 50mm issued cameras during the war?)

I miss the camera, but I got two IIIC K greys and a bunch of new lenses out of the deal (one of those greys I later traded for my M8) so it`s gone full circle now, and I still have two IIIC K Chrome bodies I use on a normal basis shooting......

Tom

 

[Olsen]

Wartime Leicas are very rare. I'm no expert, but I would be VERY suspicious of any war leica until I had someone who was an expert vouch for it. There are far too many people who look for a quick buck by faking some engravings.

At least this looks to be a real leica. unlike most of the fakes that pop up and are FSU junk.

I agree.

't forget that these war Leicas, most of them made in the 30', could now be more than 70 years old. The very few examples I have seen 'in the flesh' are two examples belonging to a museum here in Oslo. They are in very bad shape. None of them got any swastica emblem on them. Fakers seem to exagerate the degree of nazification of the German forces of WWII.

The camera shown in the link, with the 'Luftwaffen Eigentum' is an obvious fake. I am no expert at German gramatics, but, at least, it should be 'Luftwaffe Eigentum'. 'Luftwaffen' is pluralis. Germany had only one 'Luftwaffe'.

 

[LeicaTom]

The camera shown in the link, with the 'Luftwaffen Eigentum' is an obvious fake. I am no expert at German gramatics, but, at least, it should be 'Luftwaffe Eigentum'. 'Luftwaffen' is pluralis. Germany had only one 'Luftwaffe'.

Which Luftwaffe camera?

The one I bought, restored, verified and sold was a 100% original Kriegsmarine Leica, used by a Photographer on a U Boat crew, a member of the Kriegsmarine PK.

Most of the WW2 German Airforce, Army and German Navy cameras had some sort of stamping and or markings, the Navy's cameras often carried stamps of the Reichs Eagle, and not just Leica, but Contax and Robot as well........

Sorry to say, but the German airforce Leica's that are "property stamped" are all marked
LUFTWAFFEN EIGENTUM (with EN) ~ the true and only way to tell if the camera is 100% orignal is to compare it to the original Leitz Docket/Sales book ~ I have a direct connection to the factory in Germany for checking items and also help from the famous Leica historian Mr. Jim Lager.

Tom

 

[Olsen]

Which Luftwaffe camera?

The one I bought, restored, verified and sold was a 100% original Kriegsmarine Leica, used by a Photographer on a U Boat crew, a member of the Kriegsmarine PK.

Most of the WW2 German Airforce, Army and German Navy cameras had some sort of stamping and or markings, the Navy's cameras often carried stamps of the Reichs Eagle, and not just Leica, but Contax and Robot as well........

Sorry to say, but the German airforce Leica's that are "property stamped" are all marked
LUFTWAFFEN EIGENTUM (with EN) ~ the true and only way to tell if the camera is 100% orignal is to compare it to the original Leitz Docket/Sales book ~ I have a direct connection to the factory in Germany for checking items and also help from the famous Leica historian Mr. Jim Lager.

Tom

I am no specialist in either war Leica's or German gramatics, but 'Luftwaffen Eigentum' is incorrect German! This is faulty gramatics typical of how Russians with little German knowledge would try to write it. Correctly written would be 'Luftwaffe Eighetum'! (Or even more correctly; Eigentum des Luftwaffe' - or Eigentum der Luftwaffe - depending on which sex Luftwaffe is, - I am not sure).

If you have a Leica with 'Luftwaffen eigentum' written on it; it's a fake!

 

[Paul T.]

I am no specialist in either war Leica's or German gramatics, but 'Luftwaffen Eigentum' is incorrect German!

No, it's common usage. Not sure if it's the genitive case, I forget my schoolboy German. But see, for instance, the Luftwaffen Museum:

http://www.luftwaffenmuseum.de/

 

[sevo]

The camera shown in the link, with the 'Luftwaffen Eigentum' is an obvious fake. I am no expert at German gramatics, but, at least, it should be 'Luftwaffe Eigentum'. 'Luftwaffen' is pluralis. Germany had only one 'Luftwaffe'.

The German language does have a genitive, though... 😉

 

[Jaans]

I am no specialist in either war Leica's or German gramatics, but 'Luftwaffen Eigentum' is incorrect German! This is faulty gramatics typical of how Russians with little German knowledge would try to write it. Correctly written would be 'Luftwaffe Eighetum'! (Or even more correctly; Eigentum des Luftwaffe' - or Eigentum der Luftwaffe - depending on which sex Luftwaffe is, - I am not sure).

If you have a Leica with 'Luftwaffen eigentum' written on it; it's a fake!

Try telling that to Westlicht auction house and its buyers which has sold a number of these Leica IIICK's over the years marked Luftwaffen Eigentum. They are the foremost auction house for military Leica/antique Leica and I'm sure they have all their facts together better than someone who is arguing the case with grammar. They have direct contact with the Leitz factory that houses sales records and every camera is verified. A quick trip to their website to view previous sales will tell you that your wrong.

 

[Paul T.]

Well, no, it's not just Westlicht who have got the German language wrong. It's the Luftwaffe!

Look anywhere the name is used in an associative, or possessive sense, and it's Luftwaffen. Hence Luftwaffen Piloten, Luftwaffen Feld Divisionen or, yes, Luftwaffen Eigentum.

 

[johannielscom]

fake?

fake case?

fake Linhof 5x7 outfit?

Not sure here on the spelling, any Germans around here?

 

[Olsen]

Ok, ok, ok! I give in! - As said, I am no expert in neither German gramatics (a mine field of it's own) nor WWII Leicas.

 

[archeophoto]

I'm German, and "Luftwaffen Eigentum" is definately correct. The German language can be tricky at times...

Herbert

fake?

fake case?

fake Linhof 5x7 outfit?

Not sure here on the spelling, any Germans around here?

 

[LeicaTom]

...and this thread had/has NOTHING to do about anything with the Luftwaffe or air force cameras.......

The camera mentioned in this thread was issued to the Germany Navy Kriegsmarine PK, so where did all this silly Luftwaffe stuff start up for?

Tom