alexz
Well-known
Well, development issue is more or less clarified (in theory) for my thanks to our fellow members, now about fixer. I bought Tetenal Superfix Plus and it it written on the bottle to use 1:4 - 1:9 dillutions for 2-4 minutes at 20 degrees. Doesnt' sound very clear to me. Does that mean any dillution with the range fo 1:4 - 1:9 while 2 minutes for 1:4, 4 minutes for 1:9 and the dillutions in-between fit to the time spread linearily over the given interval ?
Do I need any agitation while fixing ? Or just fill the tank (small one - manual processing) in with the fixer (deluted) and leave it calm for the necessary fixing time ?
Now, regarding the process, a friend of mine who is an academically educated in photography, soon-to be professional photographer/designer suggested three possible approached to follow after development stage:
1. Right after pouring down developer, fill-in fixer...
2. Make a stop-bath with 1:10 diluted 5% vinegar (like fixer will neutralize developing)...
3. Fill in the tank (after pouring down developer) with just a water and let it be there for 3-5 minutes. Following this way, there is no fresh developer flow, but the development (there is still some residue to developer on the film surface that will mix up with the water) is still going very weak allowing to open up shadows a bit more. After that - pouring down the water out of tank and filling in with fixer.
After fixing stage, there is washing that takes 5-15 minutes. He did not mention what to do exactly at this stage (washing by the water ? In tank or out ? how exactly ?) .
After washing - he recommends to use - to get the film (out of tank) wet in a weak solution of regular hand soap with foam for about 1 minute. As far as I remember from him, this is to wash out the house water residue off the film surface (otherwise may be evident after film drying).
So, does the process sound familiar to some of you ?
Do I need any agitation while fixing ? Or just fill the tank (small one - manual processing) in with the fixer (deluted) and leave it calm for the necessary fixing time ?
Now, regarding the process, a friend of mine who is an academically educated in photography, soon-to be professional photographer/designer suggested three possible approached to follow after development stage:
1. Right after pouring down developer, fill-in fixer...
2. Make a stop-bath with 1:10 diluted 5% vinegar (like fixer will neutralize developing)...
3. Fill in the tank (after pouring down developer) with just a water and let it be there for 3-5 minutes. Following this way, there is no fresh developer flow, but the development (there is still some residue to developer on the film surface that will mix up with the water) is still going very weak allowing to open up shadows a bit more. After that - pouring down the water out of tank and filling in with fixer.
After fixing stage, there is washing that takes 5-15 minutes. He did not mention what to do exactly at this stage (washing by the water ? In tank or out ? how exactly ?) .
After washing - he recommends to use - to get the film (out of tank) wet in a weak solution of regular hand soap with foam for about 1 minute. As far as I remember from him, this is to wash out the house water residue off the film surface (otherwise may be evident after film drying).
So, does the process sound familiar to some of you ?
wray
Well-known
If you use vinegar use the white vinegar which is really just 5% acetic acid and not real vinegar anyway.
alexz
Well-known
He (the friend) actually perfers the third way in most cases (sometimes the first one) but he almost never use the secodn (with vinegar). I think I'll start up with the third one (water in-between)....just don't like the smell of vinegar...
EmilGil
Well-known
Fixer dilution is not that critical and the best way to determine the necessary fixer time is to take an undeveloped piece of film such as the leader and drop it in the fixer in broad daylight. Keep an eye on it and note how long it takes for it to clear. Double this time and you're set. (Doing this now and then will help you monitor the efficiency of the fixer.)
Agitating during fixing is recommended but not that critical as during the development stage (although some people do "stand development" with no agitation whatsoever). I usually turn the tank a few times every minute when fixing. I would recommend the use of a stop bath with acetic acid but a change of water or two is good enough. I don't know for sure about the shadow development during the water bath but it sounds reasonable.
To save water when washing, try the Ilford method. Using hand soap as wetting agent works but a bottle of wetting agent costs only a few dollars and lasts forever.
Agitating during fixing is recommended but not that critical as during the development stage (although some people do "stand development" with no agitation whatsoever). I usually turn the tank a few times every minute when fixing. I would recommend the use of a stop bath with acetic acid but a change of water or two is good enough. I don't know for sure about the shadow development during the water bath but it sounds reasonable.
To save water when washing, try the Ilford method. Using hand soap as wetting agent works but a bottle of wetting agent costs only a few dollars and lasts forever.
laptoprob
back to basics
to stop or not to stop
to stop or not to stop
Does this really work? Might try that out instead of using a stop bath.
On the other hand, longer development increases contrast, so shadows should get darker, right?
I use a JOBO rotational tank and develop about 5 to 10% shorter to compensate.
All stages are agitated by rotation, so is the rinsing. The rinsing is mostly about changing water, rinse, poor out, fresh water. Rapidly repeated. Time of rinsing doesn't seem to add much use, refreshing does.
to stop or not to stop
alexz said:
Does this really work? Might try that out instead of using a stop bath.
On the other hand, longer development increases contrast, so shadows should get darker, right?
I use a JOBO rotational tank and develop about 5 to 10% shorter to compensate.
All stages are agitated by rotation, so is the rinsing. The rinsing is mostly about changing water, rinse, poor out, fresh water. Rapidly repeated. Time of rinsing doesn't seem to add much use, refreshing does.
Bryce
Well-known
I have read that throwing the fix in immediately after the developer has been poured out is not a good practice. Evidently, the developer will soon contaminate the fixer and (this part is not clear to me) either disable the fixer or leave contaminants on the film that will eventually yellow.
Here's how I've been developing film, with good results. I don't use an acid stop bath, but 3 rinses with water- after dumping the developer, I refill the tank with water, swirl for maybe ten seconds, then dump and repeat two more times before fixing.
I started doing that after finding 'pinholes' in my negatives, and reading that they can be caused by using an acid stop. There seems to be some debate as to the connection between pinholes and stop baths, but the problem went away when I quit using it and I've seen no reason to start again.
Hope this helps!
Here's how I've been developing film, with good results. I don't use an acid stop bath, but 3 rinses with water- after dumping the developer, I refill the tank with water, swirl for maybe ten seconds, then dump and repeat two more times before fixing.
I started doing that after finding 'pinholes' in my negatives, and reading that they can be caused by using an acid stop. There seems to be some debate as to the connection between pinholes and stop baths, but the problem went away when I quit using it and I've seen no reason to start again.
Hope this helps!
Bryce
Well-known
Other points- The water bath developing method, in which sheet film is placed in developer and then gently removed and left to stand in water is a known quantity and really does work.
That said, the usual method is far more extreme than the no stop bath method we've been talking about here. So any difference in shadow detail must be very small.
Another tip- you can materially reduce rinse times by using a product like Perma Wash before the wash cycle. I highly recommend these; waiting 15 minutes to a half hour for the negs to rinse is very tedious, and a huge waste of water if you do it with running water the whole time.
That said, the usual method is far more extreme than the no stop bath method we've been talking about here. So any difference in shadow detail must be very small.
Another tip- you can materially reduce rinse times by using a product like Perma Wash before the wash cycle. I highly recommend these; waiting 15 minutes to a half hour for the negs to rinse is very tedious, and a huge waste of water if you do it with running water the whole time.
R
RML
Guest
What I do is pour out the developer, run water throught the tank for 1-1.30 minutes, pour out the water and pour in the fixer (Amaloco fixer) for 5 minutes with little agitation. Then pour out the fixer and run water through the tank for 5 minutes. Take out the film, leave them in the sink with some frsh water for a short while (1-2 minutes), take the film out and hang it. Spray with distilled water with a little drop of photoflo.
alexz
Well-known
Thank you all. In fact, his advise about soap bath at the end comes from teh fact that I wasn't able to figure Agepon in the shop recently (out of stock), so instead he advised about the soap.
V
varjag
Guest
Alex, I've tried all 3 methods and they work equally well. Pouring fixer directly after developer might shorten fixer life, but not such a big issue with modern fixers which are nearly all acidic (so do the function of a stop bath).
I flush tank with water after developing Tri-X in Rodinal, because sensibilizing agent comes out in rich violet color, and I don't like that color in my fixer In other cases I transfer film directly to fixer. I don't use a stop bath, as I see no advantage of it in my process.
I flush tank with water after developing Tri-X in Rodinal, because sensibilizing agent comes out in rich violet color, and I don't like that color in my fixer
In other cases I transfer film directly to fixer. I don't use a stop bath, as I see no advantage of it in my process.oscroft
Veteran
Just to add to the opinions, here's the way I do it...
After Dev, I just use water for a stop - fill, agitate, pour out, repeat three or four times, then fix.
For fixer, I use the Tetanal one at 1+4, for about 4 minutes. I make up 1.5L of 1+4 at a time and I generally find it's good for about 10 to 12 films - After I've done about 10 films in one batch, I'll test it every time to make sure it will actually clear a film off-cut in less than about 2 minutes, and if it takes longer than that I use it that one last time and then discard it and make up some fresh stuff.
I would never pour fixer in directly after dev - increasing concentrations of developer in the fixer can't do any good. Maybe it doesn't do any harm, but with all the wondrous chemicals to be found in different developers, why risk unwanted chemical reactions?
Vinegar? Sadly, even most of the brown "malt" vinegar you see in the shops here in the UK is fake, "non-brewed condiment" - just diluted acetic acid with brown colouring added. (That's got nothing to do with photography, it's just something that irritates me).
Now, on to my favourite bug-bear, washing. Back in the old days of 30 years ago when I started developing films, the two golden rules were "Always use a dry spiral" and "Always wash your films and prints properly", the latter because any traces of fixer left in the emulsion can cause deterioration of the image over the years.
And "properly" for films meant an hour of washing. I usually do two or three fairly short changes of water - soak for 1 min, 2 min, 4 min or thereabouts (it's not critical), and then connect up my film washer hose to the tap, stick the other end in the film spiral in the tank, and set the water to run through at a trickle (enough to fill the tank in about a minute), and then leave it going for an hour.
I'm horrified when I hear of people washing for only 5 to 15 minutes (OK, I know some people these days use that fancy hypo-remover stuff or whatever it's called, so a short wash might be fine if you use that). But I'd like to see their negatives in 30 years time (actually, I'd be very happy to see anything in 30 years time). My 30 year old FP4 negatives are just as clear and sparkling as the ones I developed this week.
Best regards,
After Dev, I just use water for a stop - fill, agitate, pour out, repeat three or four times, then fix.
For fixer, I use the Tetanal one at 1+4, for about 4 minutes. I make up 1.5L of 1+4 at a time and I generally find it's good for about 10 to 12 films - After I've done about 10 films in one batch, I'll test it every time to make sure it will actually clear a film off-cut in less than about 2 minutes, and if it takes longer than that I use it that one last time and then discard it and make up some fresh stuff.
I would never pour fixer in directly after dev - increasing concentrations of developer in the fixer can't do any good. Maybe it doesn't do any harm, but with all the wondrous chemicals to be found in different developers, why risk unwanted chemical reactions?
Vinegar? Sadly, even most of the brown "malt" vinegar you see in the shops here in the UK is fake, "non-brewed condiment" - just diluted acetic acid with brown colouring added. (That's got nothing to do with photography, it's just something that irritates me).
Now, on to my favourite bug-bear, washing. Back in the old days of 30 years ago when I started developing films, the two golden rules were "Always use a dry spiral" and "Always wash your films and prints properly", the latter because any traces of fixer left in the emulsion can cause deterioration of the image over the years.
And "properly" for films meant an hour of washing. I usually do two or three fairly short changes of water - soak for 1 min, 2 min, 4 min or thereabouts (it's not critical), and then connect up my film washer hose to the tap, stick the other end in the film spiral in the tank, and set the water to run through at a trickle (enough to fill the tank in about a minute), and then leave it going for an hour.
I'm horrified when I hear of people washing for only 5 to 15 minutes (OK, I know some people these days use that fancy hypo-remover stuff or whatever it's called, so a short wash might be fine if you use that). But I'd like to see their negatives in 30 years time (actually, I'd be very happy to see anything in 30 years time). My 30 year old FP4 negatives are just as clear and sparkling as the ones I developed this week.
Best regards,
alexz
Well-known
OK, thanks.
So, Alan, do you leave the water running through the tank for entire hour ? Perhaps that indeed is the safest approach film-wise, however sounds like a huge water waste that may not be tolerated by a hobbyst at home...Or I just did not get your point right....?
So, Alan, do you leave the water running through the tank for entire hour ? Perhaps that indeed is the safest approach film-wise, however sounds like a huge water waste that may not be tolerated by a hobbyst at home...Or I just did not get your point right....?
oscroft
Veteran
I do, yes.
If I'm running the water at a rate that fills the tank in about a minute, it's only about 60 tank-fulls. Try measuring that into a bathtub - it's really not very much. (And if you're worried, forgo a bath or shower to compensate - stink for a day and develop instead
)alexz
Well-known
oscroft said:I do, yes.
(And if you're worried, forgo a bath or shower to compensate - stink for a day and develop instead
Wow, that one neat idea...
, xmm, not sure my wife will like the smell though....chances to get thrown away to spend the night on the couch....
R
RML
Guest
oscroft said:I do, yes.
If I'm running the water at a rate that fills the tank in about a minute, it's only about 60 tank-fulls. Try measuring that into a bathtub - it's really not very much. (And if you're worried, forgo a bath or shower to compensate - stink for a day and develop instead
60 x 600 ml (2 roll Paterson tank) = 36 liters of pure water. That's a pretty big waste IMO. Plus it'll cost me quite some money over the run of a year. I don't have water savers in all my taps and use the No.1 button on my toilet so I can waste the water saved when dev'ing my film. A method that would allow me to waste (much) less water would be interesting.
V
varjag
Guest
Ilford recommended wash method for small tanks is filling the tank three times with water and doing 5, 10 and 20 inversions respectively. Per Ilford, it gives you archival quality negatives, and their statement is based on measuring residual thiosulfate levels in emulsion.
As for efects of developer traces in fixer, there is none for practical purposes. Fixer is a very simple chemical, and acidity of commercial fixers kills any developer that can be killed by acidic stop bath.
It is also a good practice to check fixer state from time to time, regardless if you use intermediate bath or not. The clearing time method suggested is a good and simple way to do it.
As for efects of developer traces in fixer, there is none for practical purposes. Fixer is a very simple chemical, and acidity of commercial fixers kills any developer that can be killed by acidic stop bath.
It is also a good practice to check fixer state from time to time, regardless if you use intermediate bath or not. The clearing time method suggested is a good and simple way to do it.
oscroft
Veteran
36 litres of water is probably about the amount used for one shower (I've seen figures quoted between 30 and 70 litres depending on the type of shower - power shower, etc).
But yes, it depends a lot on whether you pay for metered water and what the water supply is like where you live. I don't have metered water, and we have very few water shortages (and if we do, I'll hold off my developing until it's over and catch up when water is plentiful again). As long as the reservoirs are filling at least as fast as the water is used, none is really being wasted - it would just be going over the overflows.
The way to get good washing without using so much water, I think, is to do it in multiple soaks. Wash the film in running water for maybe 10 minutes (or however much you are happy with as waste), and then give it a few soaks for 10 minutes each, and then a few for 20 minutes each, and a final rinse for a couple of minutes in running water. You wouldn't get the same volume of water exchange through the emulsion, but I don't think you'd be that far off in terms of the washing out of fixer.
I guess another possibility might be to find a way of catching the waste water and using it for a suitable purpose - I'm sure flushing the toilet using water with a tiny bit of fixer in it won't do any harm (And, in fact, if you discard, say, the first 10 minutes of washings, I'd suspect the remainder would be fine for watering the garden or washing the car. But don't trust me on that, because I don't know anything about gardening - thiosulphate may be a deadly poison to some plants for all I know).
Of course, it's really difficult to experiment with different washing methods, because it might be 20 years before you can tell if your film wasn't washed well enough.
kaiyen
local man of mystery
Hm...long enough thread for me to write a semi-relevant post...
1+9 is usually a paper dilution. Not for all fixers, of course, but the stronger the concentration, the faster the fixing. I would go for 1+4. It's odd that they'd list it as a range, as those two are _common_ - one for film, one for paper.
There is a minute but proven bit of compensation if you use water for a stop. Every little bit helps - micro-contrast leads to sharpness, and you need sharpness in 35mm.
Ilford method. Seriously - 36 liters? I am rarely judgmental, but regardless of whether you have metered water or not, that's just not right IMO.
allan
1+9 is usually a paper dilution. Not for all fixers, of course, but the stronger the concentration, the faster the fixing. I would go for 1+4. It's odd that they'd list it as a range, as those two are _common_ - one for film, one for paper.
There is a minute but proven bit of compensation if you use water for a stop. Every little bit helps - micro-contrast leads to sharpness, and you need sharpness in 35mm.
Ilford method. Seriously - 36 liters? I am rarely judgmental, but regardless of whether you have metered water or not, that's just not right IMO.
allan
oscroft
Veteran
No, that wasn't for the Ilford method, that was for my method, and for a two-film tank. And it's only about the same as having a normal shower (and much less than having a bath or a power shower).
But if, as I suggested, you live in an area where there is no shortage of water and the reservoirs are all full (with excess water pouring over the overflows), what difference does it make?
R
RML
Guest
oscroft said:
The apparent lack of water shortages doesn't mean there isn't an inherent water shortage. Most of California wouldn't be properly habitable by all those millions if it had to live on the water from the Colorado as it flowed a 100 years ago. And such is the case with many places on this planet.
Furthermore, to waste perfectly good pure water is IMO a crying shame. Not to mention that wasted water still goes to the water treatment plants where it adds to the volume treated, and thus to the energy used (not to mention expansions of the facilities that are needed in the future, unnecessarily).
Wasting resources is wasting money. Even if you don't give a **** about the environment, I'm sure you don't want to waste your precious money when you can prevent it. Or do you burn $$ bills for fun too?