Developer Volume for More Than One Roll

[css9450]

I use stainless-steel tanks... For my two-reel tank, the top of the second reel is almost up to the top of the tank. In other words, I can cover it with developer, but not by much. Is that OK? 500ml of developer will over-fill the tank, but 450 should fit I think. I've never tried to develop two at a time, mainly due to this uncertainty. I don't want them underdeveloped due to insufficient developer.

I recently bought a four-reel tank. I found I can load one 35mm, one 127 and one 120 and come up to about an inch from the top of the tank. This would be somewhere around 950 ml. Is that enough? I sometimes develop one 35 and one 120 in the same weekend, but I do them separately. With this new tank I can finally do them together. Doing three might be too much if there isn't space for enough developer.

 

[x-ray]

I always totally fill the tank until it overflows. It helps dampen the motion of the reels when agitating plus you never have to worry about not covering the film with solution. As cheap as developer is why run the risk of not having enough to cover. As to not having enough solution to complete development, you have no worry.

 

[css9450]

As to not having enough solution to complete development, you have no worry.

Thanks, that is reassuring! I figured they wouldn't market them as "for two reels" if two reels would exhaust the developer, but I wasn't 100% sure.

 

[x-ray]

The only concern is getting the developer too dilute as with Rodinal at greater than 1:100 dilution. Some films exhaust the developer faster than others but h films that most of us use are no problem. Just follow the manufactures recommendations and you'll be fine.

 

[Ronald M]

filling to overflow will impede agitation. Just cover the top reel with water and measure.

Insufficient agitation will cause uneven replenishment and some parts of the film will be darker or lighter than proper.

BEST practice is to drop the loaded reels into tank refilled with developer, cap and commence agitation immediately. Pouring in can cause problems.

Inversion is best for beginners. 5 to 7 inversions in 5 sec. I can not do 7 myself. This is in the Kodak data sheet.

Also torus works for me. Invert and twist. twist and upright. Do two inversions in 5 sec.

There are other ways to achieve complete replenishment, but above is tried and true for 60 years that i know about. Good agitation and getting the wet,dry edge to move across the film fast and no back tracking are THE KEYS to good development.

Pouring works with one reel, 2 reels mostly, 3 or more use lift rod or use plastic tank that fills nicely bottom up. First 30 sec are critical.

Good luck

 

[x-ray]

filling to overflow will impede agitation. Just cover the top reel with water and measure.

Insufficient agitation will cause uneven replenishment and some parts of the film will be darker or lighter than proper.

BEST practice is to drop the loaded reels into tank refilled with developer, cap and commence agitation immediately. Pouring in can cause problems.

Inversion is best for beginners. 5 to 7 inversions in 5 sec. I can not do 7 myself. This is in the Kodak data sheet.

Also torus works for me. Invert and twist. twist and upright. Do two inversions in 5 sec.

There are other ways to achieve complete replenishment, but above is tried and true for 60 years that i know about. Good agitation and getting the wet,dry edge to move across the film fast and no back tracking are THE KEYS to good development.

Pouring works with one reel, 2 reels mostly, 3 or more use lift rod or use plastic tank that fills nicely bottom up. First 30 sec are critical.

Good luck

I'm a believer in totally filling thank to overflow otherwise I over agitate. Regarding the movement of the reels gives me perfect uniformity. I use primarily HC110 and occasionally. I've used Rodinal since 1968 and HC 110 since 1975 both with very consistent results. I agitate with most films 10 seconds initially and then three twisting in ersions every thirty seconds.

I use stainless tanks like Kinderman. When I had my studio I ran upward of fifty rolls in an evening and might do that several times a week. Because of the volume I'd run 8 -10 rolls in a large tank. I'd ink the film into the filled tank and then put the lid on.

If running 4 rolls or less I'd just fill the tank through the lid. If you're using development times of 7 minutes (roughly) or more and don't coddle while filling and pouring the developer out there's no issue with even negs. The trick is pour in and out quickly and make certain you use longer development times to insure consistency. A 30 pour time in and out averages out. Like any good photographer, test your skill before attempting on on something important.

One thing I've learned is, what works for me most likely won't work for you. Development technique is a very individual thing that takes time and experimentation to perfect. I've been running film for sixty years and run tens of thousands of rolls in my work and pretty much have it perfected for my way of doing things.

 

[css9450]

Fortunately, Rodinal at 1:50 is 13 minutes at 68 degrees; that'll work in my favor. This is on Ilford Delta 100.

 

[Steve M.]

I would not fill it all the way to the top with developer either. Agitation would not be correct. You might want to do a google on your tank and see what the manufacturer recommends. Myself, I never develop more than one roll at a time. If something goes wrong, and sometimes it does, you end up cooking all the rolls in the tank. W/ one roll, that's all that can be screwed up.

 

[x-ray]

I would not fill it all the way to the top with developer either. Agitation would not be correct.

Everyone agitates different. What works for you give the same result as it would for me and the same is true for my agitation. To simply say agitation wouldn't be right might only apply to you and a FE other people. The same would be true for my agitation pattern.

Let's not misguide the OP and allow this person to try different techniques and find what works in his or her case.

I've worked out a pretty good technique for me after tens of thousands of rolls. No joke, in the 20,000 jobs I've shot in fifty years I've run that much B&W film. If I don't fill the tank to overflow I get agitation marks as in increased density on the edges. I do a strong agitation and want to suppress the reels from sliding around. My 2 reel 120 tanks are Kinderman and are actually 2 120 plus 1 35. I add a 135 reel to further reduce the reels from sliding back and forth. For me, it works perfect.

 

[Ronald M]

No such thing as over agitation other wise Jobo and other systems would not work.
Patterson plastic has huge empty headroom and development is perfect. I have put one full reel + empty one on top in 2 reel stainless tank. Use 8 oz of developer, not 16. Agitate by inversion. Perfect negs.

Uneven development is from uneven agitation giving more replenishment in some areas.

Pro member Bill Pierce came up with the single film in 2 reel tank in the early 1960s when he wrote about it in Modern Photography. The only difference is he rolled the tank for agitation rather than inversion. Both methods work perfectly.

I can also say sheet film is sometimes agitated by lift, drain one corner, reimmerse, lift drain from opposite corner, reimmerse. Gas burst is better, but cost money to set up. Jobe Expert drum is perfect and continuous.

The whole secret is wet/dry edge need to move across film fast and agitation needs to be random and vigorous.

 

[x-ray]

No such thing as over agitation other wise Jobo and other systems would not work.
Patterson plastic has huge empty headroom and development is perfect. I have put one full reel + empty one on top in 2 reel stainless tank. Use 8 oz of developer, not 16. Agitate by inversion. Perfect negs.

Uneven development is from uneven agitation giving more replenishment in some areas.

For many years I had two commercial rotary tube processors in my studio lab. One was a twin 24" tube Merz machine and a Colenta machine that used paddles and racks. I ran a photo department in a large ad agency and had a large Colenta machine like the one I had. It would run 48 sheets of 4x5 at once as I recall. Both the Colenta machines were fully auto once the film was loaded.

When I shut my studio down and lab I put a Jobo CPA2 in my home lab.

Yes there is such a thing as over agitation. Over agitation doesn't equate to uneven development necessarily. It equates to over development unless times are reduced, agitation is slowed down ie rotation speed or developer is diluted (up to a point) to adjust for increased agitation rates. Rotary machines hVe high rates of agitation particularly the Jobo. I found I had to run my Jobo at its slowest rotation speed and dilute developer. The Colenta and Merz didn't suffer from this issue because of tube diameter and rotation speed. It really comes down to the period of time the film is in the developer bs agitation. The two commercial machines were very balanced in that regard as they were very well engineered and built to maintain Kodak, Ilford etc recommended times.

A lot of people get away with things like using chemicals longer than recommended, extending capacity beyond recomendations and only partially filling the tank. You were lucky and I certainly wouldn't recommend someone doing that. It's a very good way to get agitation streaks.

You state uneven development results from more replenishment in some area. It has nothing to do with replenishment. Replenishment is adding chemicals back into the developer that are depleted during processing to maintain a consistent level of activity.

 

[sepiareverb]

I too use metal tanks and reels and fill till overflowing. I don’t have uneven development with this method. I use a spacer reel for 110 film in my ‘4 reel’ tank when running two 120 rolls to prevent too much agitation. As x-ray states, the correct way of working should be determined by testing your materials in your workflow. I have specific agitation for different films, as determined by testing.

As to volume, there is a minimum volume of stock solution required for a single roll of 135-36 or 120, which is equal to a sheet of 8x10 film. So this minimum must be in the tank for each roll developed. For most developers there is a margin built in, but with Rodinal at high dilutions, or HC-110 at extremely high dilutions one can run into problems, when more film can fit in the tank than the required volume of stock solution can fit in the volume of developer for that tank. I learned this the hard way when running 220 film, which is equivalent to two sheets of 8x10, but fits in a tank that holds 500 ml. The tech sheet for the developer will give this minimum volume information.

 

[x-ray]

Interesting you mention 220. When I hand processed large amounts of film, 50 rolls of 120 or so, I was able to load two rolls of 120 end to end in a standard diameter /220 reel. I'm not talking the ones for the old fat Nikor tanks I'm talking 120 diameter. It takes a lot of practice but I do it with no issues. Doing this however you need to run in low dilution developers. I never went more dilute than HC110B and sometimes A. I don't recommend this unless you practice loading and run tests.

 

[Ronald M]

For many years I had two commercial rotary tube processors in my studio lab. One was a twin 24" tube Merz machine and a Colenta machine that used paddles and racks. I ran a photo department in a large ad agency and had a large Colenta machine like the one I had. It would run 48 sheets of 4x5 at once as I recall. Both the Colenta machines were fully auto once the film was loaded.

When I shut my studio down and lab I put a Jobo CPA2 in my home lab.

Yes there is such a thing as over agitation. Over agitation doesn't equate to uneven development necessarily. It equates to over development unless times are reduced, agitation is slowed down ie rotation speed or developer is diluted (up to a point) to adjust for increased agitation rates. Rotary machines hVe high rates of agitation particularly the Jobo. I found I had to run my Jobo at its slowest rotation speed and dilute developer. The Colenta and Merz didn't suffer from this issue because of tube diameter and rotation speed. It really comes down to the period of time the film is in the developer bs agitation. The two commercial machines were very balanced in that regard as they were very well engineered and built to maintain Kodak, Ilford etc recommended times.

A lot of people get away with things like using chemicals longer than recommended, extending capacity beyond recomendations and only partially filling the tank. You were lucky and I certainly wouldn't recommend someone doing that. It's a very good way to get agitation streaks.

You state uneven development results from more replenishment in some area. It has nothing to do with replenishment. Replenishment is adding chemicals back into the developer that are depleted during processing to maintain a consistent level of activity.

If replenishment is not even in areas of smooth tone you WILL get marks.

I am not talking about people who abuse extremely rapid movement or skimp on other things.

My Jobo has a film speed setting that is very fast and I only use it for first minute of color neg processing. It is as fast as the machine will turn.

 

[sepiareverb]

Interesting you mention 220. When I hand processed large amounts of film, 50 rolls of 120 or so, I was able to load two rolls of 120 end to end in a standard diameter /220 reel...

Those were the reels I had. Such a bear to load those things. I remember spending many an evening in front of the tv with a reel and a roll of 220 practicing. Still never got great at them, and haven’t missed 220! 🙄

 

[x-ray]

Those were the reels I had. Such a bear to load those things. I remember spending many an evening in front of the tv with a reel and a roll of 220 practicing. Still never got great at them, and haven’t missed 220! 🙄

I never used much 220 because I didn't routinely use emulsions available in that size but found the reels useful to load 2-120 rolls on each. It allowed you to get twice as many rolls in a tank.

 

[john_s]

filling to overflow will impede agitation. Just cover the top reel with water and measure.......

I have always thought this. I leave a gap and agitate gently, rolling the tank over (top to bottom then continuing to turn so the top is again on top), turning it a bit, and rolling it over again (to prevent agitation being more on some parts of the reel time after time). The air moves the liquid around fairly gently.

As I get older, my negatives are getting better, and part of that is due to gentle but complete agitation (in fact the word "agitation" seems a bit aggressive to me). The other part is more suitable exposure and avoiding overdevelopment, but you all know this.