dcsang
Canadian & Not A Dentist
Lately I've noted some surge marks on my films - I live with them for the most part but I'm really beginning to wonder if it's got anything to do with what most folks suggest "inadequate" or "too vigorous" agitation.
Lately it's been Tri-X in Xtol 1:1 - a pretty standard combo for me.
I'm now confused with what's causing the surge marks and, what appears in some of the photos on one roll, to be sort of a 'drifting' of surge marks.
I've got my theories:
1) Agitation - don't know if too vigorous is possible - I definitely was "more vigorous" this time around than I usually am - as these are wedding images, I want to be sure I get it right ya know?? Luckily the "good shots" didn't get hit that badly with this sort of effect.
2) Weak/Exhausted developer - I'm using Xtol that's been in the bottle for, perhaps, 4-6 months - The bottle is a 5 Litre bottle and, as you may guess, it's got a good chunk of air (i.e. the bottle is less than half full currently)
3) Weak/Exhausted fixer - the fixer is far from clear but it's not overly yellowish either.. the concentrate could also be suspect since it too, like the developer, is probably about 4-6 months old (Ilford RapidFix) and is in a less than full bottle - therefore there's quite a bit of air in there.
Here's the images:
First one of the less offending ones but the surge is seen against the wall behind the groom to be:
Then, in this one, from the same roll, only a couple frames downwind from the one above, there's nary a sight of the surge marks:
Any ideas folks?
Oh, by the way, those are definitely something funky in the development and not light patterns on the wall.. I know this for a fact
Cheers,
Dave
Lately it's been Tri-X in Xtol 1:1 - a pretty standard combo for me.
I'm now confused with what's causing the surge marks and, what appears in some of the photos on one roll, to be sort of a 'drifting' of surge marks.
I've got my theories:
1) Agitation - don't know if too vigorous is possible - I definitely was "more vigorous" this time around than I usually am - as these are wedding images, I want to be sure I get it right ya know?? Luckily the "good shots" didn't get hit that badly with this sort of effect.
2) Weak/Exhausted developer - I'm using Xtol that's been in the bottle for, perhaps, 4-6 months - The bottle is a 5 Litre bottle and, as you may guess, it's got a good chunk of air (i.e. the bottle is less than half full currently)
3) Weak/Exhausted fixer - the fixer is far from clear but it's not overly yellowish either.. the concentrate could also be suspect since it too, like the developer, is probably about 4-6 months old (Ilford RapidFix) and is in a less than full bottle - therefore there's quite a bit of air in there.
Here's the images:
First one of the less offending ones but the surge is seen against the wall behind the groom to be:
Then, in this one, from the same roll, only a couple frames downwind from the one above, there's nary a sight of the surge marks:
Any ideas folks?
Oh, by the way, those are definitely something funky in the development and not light patterns on the wall.. I know this for a fact
Cheers,
Dave
Roger Hicks
Veteran
Dear Dave,
Excessive development is not possible BUT excessively regular agitation is possible, especially with constant agitaion. The dev flows in 'rivers', faster in some places than others.
1: Don't use too much dev. As long as there's enough to cover the film, that's all you need. A bigger air space = better agitation.
2: Twist as you invert (as the bishop said to the actress). The aim is to make the agitation as thorough and random as possible.
3: Check fix times as described in http://www.rogerandfrances.com/subscription/fixer exhaustion.html
Cheers,
R.
Excessive development is not possible BUT excessively regular agitation is possible, especially with constant agitaion. The dev flows in 'rivers', faster in some places than others.
1: Don't use too much dev. As long as there's enough to cover the film, that's all you need. A bigger air space = better agitation.
2: Twist as you invert (as the bishop said to the actress). The aim is to make the agitation as thorough and random as possible.
3: Check fix times as described in http://www.rogerandfrances.com/subscription/fixer exhaustion.html
Cheers,
R.
dcsang
Canadian & Not A Dentist
Dearest Mr Hicks
(funny, I used to know a "Mr Hicks" when I was in elementary school - he was a grade 6 teacher, quite quirky and a bit crotchety too... regardless.. )
Thanks for the reminder on testing the fixer - I often forget about that and haven't done that in a few years - I got accustomed to just stuffing the fixer in for 2-3 minutes to fix the film.. I'll revisit this and do this from here on in.
Also thanks for the suggestion on the developer - I'll review and proceed accordingly - luckily I got some decent images that don't have the surge marks.. so.. I'll aim to correct my process.
Cheers,
Dave
(funny, I used to know a "Mr Hicks" when I was in elementary school - he was a grade 6 teacher, quite quirky and a bit crotchety too... regardless..
)Thanks for the reminder on testing the fixer - I often forget about that and haven't done that in a few years - I got accustomed to just stuffing the fixer in for 2-3 minutes to fix the film.. I'll revisit this and do this from here on in.
Also thanks for the suggestion on the developer - I'll review and proceed accordingly - luckily I got some decent images that don't have the surge marks.. so.. I'll aim to correct my process.
Cheers,
Dave
degruyl
Just this guy, you know?
good news is you can refix if necessary.
Bruin
Noktonian
Hey Dave,
I also think more random agitation will help. I happen to do as Roger recommends, twist the tank 1/3 or 1/4 turn when it's upside down before righting it again. Having a good airspace on top really makes a difference, too. I had surge marks when I used a steel tank but not with a plastic Jobo using the same routine. Turns out the steel tank was too full (it's easy to see when you have enough liquid in the Jobo) and leaving more air in the tank solved the problem.
You can check the darkness of the frame numbers on the rebates, to give you a clue if your dev is getting exhausted. But weak dev with proper agitation will give you uniformly thin negs, not surge marks. To displace air in the bottle, I shoot some canned air into the bottle (ok that doesn't sound right, but you know what I mean!).
A quick check of your fixer's clearing time with a snippet of film leader can tell if your fixer is still good. But properly agitated, underfixed film doesn't have surge marks; it looks kinda milky or hazy. IIRC film can be refixed if it was underfixed anyways.
I also think more random agitation will help. I happen to do as Roger recommends, twist the tank 1/3 or 1/4 turn when it's upside down before righting it again. Having a good airspace on top really makes a difference, too. I had surge marks when I used a steel tank but not with a plastic Jobo using the same routine. Turns out the steel tank was too full (it's easy to see when you have enough liquid in the Jobo) and leaving more air in the tank solved the problem.
You can check the darkness of the frame numbers on the rebates, to give you a clue if your dev is getting exhausted. But weak dev with proper agitation will give you uniformly thin negs, not surge marks. To displace air in the bottle, I shoot some canned air into the bottle (ok that doesn't sound right, but you know what I mean!).
A quick check of your fixer's clearing time with a snippet of film leader can tell if your fixer is still good. But properly agitated, underfixed film doesn't have surge marks; it looks kinda milky or hazy. IIRC film can be refixed if it was underfixed anyways.
MartinP
Veteran
The agitation 'randomising' that I do is to turn the tank maybe a 1/5 or 1/3 of a turn when I set it down after each agitation. I started doing that early in my developing history, after an almost-disastrous slip when turning the tank and inverting at the same time. Apparently I have a multi-tasking problem like that . . . I have seen some friends do inversions as fast as they can - I try to think of 'thorough' rather than 'speedy', because of surge marks, and anyway it takes a few seconds for the developer to physically move from one end of the tank to the other. Deep tanks worked the best for me, but that was decades ago, oops.
Probably we are all also assuming that the negs are not thinner than normal, as the effect might be more evident in less dense negs resulting from tired developer. On the other hand, as I haven't used Xtol, is it the case that it has a very short period between ok and dead ?
Like everyone has said, it is likely to be developer related, with striping across the film like that. Also, the same effect is visible on the top edge of the second jpg you posted
Probably we are all also assuming that the negs are not thinner than normal, as the effect might be more evident in less dense negs resulting from tired developer. On the other hand, as I haven't used Xtol, is it the case that it has a very short period between ok and dead ?
Like everyone has said, it is likely to be developer related, with striping across the film like that. Also, the same effect is visible on the top edge of the second jpg you posted
Fawley
Well-known
First of all, nice shots, and I think Xtol developer was a good choice here too. I can't claim to know what specifically is causing your problem but excess agitation could be it. I almost always use a very gentle agitation and have never problems. With Xtol I agitate every 1.5 minute with 4 or 5 very gentle twist inversions.
Some other comments: You should really get hold of some 1 litre containers for keeping your Xtol in. Your developer will last longer and give you more consistent results. With respect to your fixer, be aware that the fixer doesn't last as long unless you are using a stop bath, which a lot of people don't use. I suspect that the fix capacities given by the manufacturers assume you are using a stop bath.
Some other comments: You should really get hold of some 1 litre containers for keeping your Xtol in. Your developer will last longer and give you more consistent results. With respect to your fixer, be aware that the fixer doesn't last as long unless you are using a stop bath, which a lot of people don't use. I suspect that the fix capacities given by the manufacturers assume you are using a stop bath.
dfoo
Well-known
I went through lots of crap with (supposed) surge marks on my film a years ago or so. I tried all sorts of agitation nonsense, and none of it worked. Personally, I think that over agitation of film is quite difficult. If you read the Kodak documentation it basically recommends shaking the tank like a cocktail shaker. In my case, then problem turned out to be the fixer. I had mixed my fix 1+9 instead of 1+3 and I was under fixing the film.
Ronald M
Veteran
Listen to Mr Hicks.
Machine processing would not be possible if overagitation was a problem.
Now my two cents.
Agitation needs be be two things, random so you don`t get streaks, and vigorous so all of the film surface is covered with fresh developer for each agitation cycle.
Look at the Kodak site and they will tell you 5 to 7 inversions in 5 sec, repeat every 30.
Slow, gentle, stand, may work for some, it is generally not the best. Result is streaking and underreplenihed areas that are under developed, so called surge marks. These are not from too much, but two little agitation.
When you do commercial work, you must already have a known process and you don`t change it. Seconly, use fresh chems specially with Xtol which gives no hit of being bad.
There is no home test to be sure it is up to strength, just some wishful thing exercises like clip tests and drops on a film leader that have no basis in fact. Control strips with densitometer readings are the only way for valid activity tests.
Machine processing would not be possible if overagitation was a problem.
Now my two cents.
Agitation needs be be two things, random so you don`t get streaks, and vigorous so all of the film surface is covered with fresh developer for each agitation cycle.
Look at the Kodak site and they will tell you 5 to 7 inversions in 5 sec, repeat every 30.
Slow, gentle, stand, may work for some, it is generally not the best. Result is streaking and underreplenihed areas that are under developed, so called surge marks. These are not from too much, but two little agitation.
When you do commercial work, you must already have a known process and you don`t change it. Seconly, use fresh chems specially with Xtol which gives no hit of being bad.
There is no home test to be sure it is up to strength, just some wishful thing exercises like clip tests and drops on a film leader that have no basis in fact. Control strips with densitometer readings are the only way for valid activity tests.
dcsang
Canadian & Not A Dentist
Ya see.. everyone seems to suggest over agitation but if you read Kodak's PDF on developing Tri-X here's what they suggest:
To me, 5-7 inversions in 5 seconds in a small tank, THAT is vigorous agitation. They even say "extend your arm and vigorously twist your wrist 180 degrees.
Other people have suggested not leaving room for air in the tank.
Some suggested too warm a dev temp - but this was at 68 F on the button.
Yet others have suggested the developer has oxidized.
I'm sort of at a loss here but am willing to replace developer with fresh stock, fixer with fresh stock and even a new small tank (this one is.. oh.. well on and about 4-5 years old I think)...
Just wondering how to avoid this in the future..
Cheers,
Dave
Sparrow
Veteran
I've always just twisted the spiral, Paterson tanks clockwise if that matters, but only gently, I don't think I've ever inverted a tank, I'm always frightened of frothing
The only time I've had drag marks like that is when I briefly tried that stand developing thing
The only time I've had drag marks like that is when I briefly tried that stand developing thing
Roger Hicks
Veteran
Dear Dave,
That one, at least, you can safely ignore. Think of a fresh jar of orange juice and a half-full jar. You normally agitate before you drink it. Which mixes better and faster: half-full or full to the brim? Only the hard of thinking will have difficulty with this.
Too-warm dev = MORE development, just like stronger dev, longer time, more agitation. Safe to ignore.
Exhausted dev = too-thin negs, just like cooler dev, shorter time, less agitation. Can't tell from the scan, but you can tell from the negs.
As Ronald points out: machine processing would be impossible if over-agitation could be a problem. Excess agitation is impossible UNLESS there is insufficient randomization of the agitation. As for Kodak's recommendations, to quote an Ilford expert on the same topic, "Why would we lie? Spite? Or because we don't want you to get the best possible results from our film?"
I'm still using tanks I bought 40+ years ago. Old tanks are unlikely to be the problem.
Cheers,
R.
dfoo
Well-known
I've been processing my film with rotary processing in a 5 roll patterson tank for the past 6 months. I really like the results. Its very simple, and straightforward and easily provides repeatable results. The rotary processor was $20. Very cheap!
dcsang
Canadian & Not A Dentist
Figured it out. . .
1) My clearing time was sucking (the fixer was taking literally 4 minutes or more to clear the film - I was only fixing for about 3 min)
2) I left some more space in the tank - used 620ml versus 680ml of Xtol 1:1
3) My agitation was not as "vigorous" - I did a swirling figure 8 with an inversion - about 4 in 10 seconds.
I'll hopefully post some neg scans from the Neopan1600 @ 800 later this evening.
Thanks to all for your help with this
Cheers,
Dave
1) My clearing time was sucking (the fixer was taking literally 4 minutes or more to clear the film - I was only fixing for about 3 min)
2) I left some more space in the tank - used 620ml versus 680ml of Xtol 1:1
3) My agitation was not as "vigorous" - I did a swirling figure 8 with an inversion - about 4 in 10 seconds.
I'll hopefully post some neg scans from the Neopan1600 @ 800 later this evening.
Thanks to all for your help with this
Cheers,
Dave