Digital M confirmed and more.....

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Guillaume

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Hello to everyone. As you can see, i am new to this forum so i thought i should bring you all an ice-breaking present. I was at Bakers in Lewes, East Sussex UK today and was speaking to one of the staff of the approved leica dealer. Well as it turns out, he has just returned from a meeting in Milton Keynes with some rather mouth watering information. He confirmed that soon, there will be a digital rangerfinder with an M mount based around the M7 body. He was understandably very shy about details but said an official statement shall be released in a couple of months........ around the same time as Leica release an updated 6 or 8 mp d-lux. Also, as if that wasn't enough..... the D2 will not be updated, instead will be replaced with an entirely new digital camera with either M or R mount or possibly a new range of "digital lenses". I know it's vague but he told me i could find out more at their Leica day in the summer. Personaly I can't wait for the new d-lux. The shop assistant showed me a pict-bridge A4 print..... right out of camera of lewes town hall and it looked incredible despite the 3.2mp. Have fun digesting this lot.
 
"Interesting, if factual," as Mr. Spock used to say on Star Trek...

I wonder if talk of "a range of 'digital lenses'" implies a sub-24x36mm sensor. That would disappoint a lot of people... then again, maybe they're thinking of a stratospherically-priced full-frame "digital M" plus a lower-priced, smaller-sensor D2 replacement. That approach can be a bit confusing (as Canon DSLR users know) but would give them a chance to satisfy the 24x36 diehards plus offer a more realistically-priced camera and lenses that could sell in higher volumes -- something they need for survival!
 
welcome, Guillaume.. thanks for the heads-up.. that would definitely change the digital camera landscape if it pans out!
 
The Great Carnak Predicts Leica's Rangefinder Future:

M8d 'digital M' -- M-mount camera based on M7 chassis and electronics, but larger and clunkier with addition of necessary controls, power, LCD display, etc. Full-frame 24x36-megapixel sensor from some OEM or other, possibly the same place Kodak gets theirs. Retina-searing price and very low actual sales, although undoubtedly it will be the wet dream of Internet Leica-idolators who will pronounce it the greatest digital camera ever without actually having used one. Low volume means it will have to be even more expensive than specs suggest, to yield enough profit per unit to cover development costs.

D3 Digital (or some such name) -- Impressively styled but compact digital RF with Leica brand but made by Matsushita, although possibly with a Solms-sourced rangefinder module ("Ach, Fritz, dust off those drawings for the CL...") Off-the-rack APS-size sensor (at least 8 megapixels so they can beat the R-D 1.) Built-in motor and more electronic controls than the 'digital M.' Finder frames calibrated for a companion line of smaller-format, digital-only lenses, also Leica-branded but manufactured by a Japanese subcontractor. These lenses might be M-mount (maybe with the addition of an electronic coupler so the camera can provide programmed autoexposure) or they might throw us a curve and make them R or even some different mount (although surely there will be some sort of adapter to allow the use of M lenses on the camera.) This camera will be very aggressively priced by Leica standards, probably around the R-D 1 level or possibly even a bit less; they'll aim to make up the lower profit per unit by selling more volume and more lenses. Expect huge flame wars on photo.net about whether or not it's a "real Leica"...​
 
Damn, that Carnac is visionary! I had almost the exact same thoughts. :p
 
I thought when the DCS14n came out that I read they were sourcing the imager from a company in the Netherlands. Of course, there were a lot of problems with the original DCS14n, so maybe they went back in-house.

If Kodak's imagers are good enough for the Defense Department (I seem to recall reading that they equip the USA's spiffiest spy satellites) I figure they'd be good enough for me, too -- although as you note, the kinds of prices the DoD can pay are considerably beyond my budget, and possibly even the average Leica buyer's budget as well!
 
Stephanie Brim said:
Mmmmmm...digital M. With a full-frame sensor? Camera heaven. Probably quite a few grand, though, in price.
Click to expand...

Heaven? If it was free, I'd still rather shoot Tri-X.
 
ddimaria said:
I'll second that. (Though I would take the camera) Doesn't anyone like to print anymore... without a printer.
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I do, and I can see that the results are better. But the way my life is right now, there just isn't time.

I'm saving my darkroom equipment for when I retire... hope somebody still is making papers and chemistry then!
 
Kodak does have their own sensor plant. Also I think TI some 'bits & pieces' for them as well.

jlw said:
I thought when the DCS14n came out that I read they were sourcing the imager from a company in the Netherlands. Of course, there were a lot of problems with the original DCS14n, so maybe they went back in-house.
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The Dutch compnay is Philips. But I'm told that Philips have sold off their CCD plant to Imacon, which is now part of the Hasselblad.

If they do a Digilux 3 with M-mount rather than fixed lens...

a). Will Panasonic make one as well? (Lumix DMC-LCM?) And would it be historically $1000 less than the Leica? I'm guessing they will, but I wouldn't surprised if the Panasonic version as fixed lens, but that would be a pity...

b). 8MP APS Panasonic sensor would be fine. Sure the die hards will bitch and moan till the cows come home... and let them. It's people like us that will use said camera. If the camera is priced right, it will sell. Many Leica users and admirers here say that if the Digilux 2 was M-mount it would be great value and would have been an 'instant' purchase. I'd bet good money that if Leica does the D3 with M-mount and it's pricing is the same as D2 when it first came out, there's going to be more than one production run of it. May even give the folks over at Epson and Cosina a good scare.

c). I may have to reconsider this Digilux-1/DMC-LC5 purchase if this news is true,

Also this may explan the sudden bargin basement prices on D1/D2/LC1s here. $1000NZ for Panasonic Lumix DMC-LC1, it's darn tempting...

Another option for Leica is a Digital M-Module like the R-Module for their SLRs.

Stu :)
 
Stu :) said:
The Dutch compnay is Philips. But I'm told that Philips have sold off their CCD plant to Imacon, which is now part of the Hasselblad.
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It wasn't Philips; I remembered that it was a company with an odd name. But I was wrong about its being Dutch; actually Kodak teamed up on the design work with a Belgian company called FillFactory (which is still around, and specializes in industrial and scientific imagers; if you need a radiation-hardened imager for your next nuclear test, they've got just what you need.) The fabrication was done by an Israeli company called Tower Semiconductor.

So, apologies to any Belgian readers for confusing you with Nederlanders!

(I tracked down the sensor info on Rob Galbraith's website,
here.)
 
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Hoping for a 4/3's solution

Hoping for a 4/3's solution

I would hope that Matsushita's participation in the 4/3 standard would translate into a Panaleica using the 4/3 sensor. The 4/3 sensor seems a pretty big step up in quality from the 2/3" sensors used in prosumers, and you can start to get selective focus due to the frame size. A 4/3 sized sensor with a Vario-Summicron type lens from the Digilux 2 would be an awesome P&S.

The only 8 megapixel APS sized imager I see on the market right now is the one used in the Canons, and I don't think they'll be licensing them to competitors. Rumors are that the Nikon D2x 12mp sensor is a Sony product, so maybe Leica will go to 12mp instead of using the 10mp sensor from the Digital R?
 
I would think that it would be wise for Leica, before introducing a 'heavy weight' digital M at a 'heavy weight' price, to quickly put together an R-D1 like rangefinder. It should be a few dollars less than the R-D1 and if they can manage to actually make it reliable, unlike the Epson Cosina attempt, it would be a big scoop for them. If this model were to be, it would undoubtedly have the more robust and accurate M rangefinder module on top of it. Perhaps this is what is on its way? But they shouldn't listen to me....I'm only the consumer.

Thanks Guillaume....it sounds hopeful.
Michael
 
Considering that a Leica M7 is $4000 and that an Epson RD-1 is already $3000, I don't think I'll own a digital M anytime soon. I really wonder what stratospheric price this digital M will reach.
 
chametzoo said:
I would think that it would be wise for Leica, before introducing a 'heavy weight' digital M at a 'heavy weight' price, to quickly put together an R-D1 like rangefinder. It should be a few dollars less than the R-D1 and if they can manage to actually make it reliable, unlike the Epson Cosina attempt, it would be a big scoop for them. If this model were to be, it would undoubtedly have the more robust and accurate M rangefinder module on top of it. Perhaps this is what is on its way? But they shouldn't listen to me....I'm only the consumer.
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Although an improved R-D 1-type camera at a lower price undoubtedly would be popular, it's hard for me to see how Leica would be able to bring this off.

First, I think most of us who actually own and use R-D 1s would not describe it as "unreliable." There have been people who have had rangefinder-adjustment problems and hot-pixel problems; these are not really reliability problems. There are also a lot of people who have had no significant problems and are extremely happy with the R-D 1.

So, a competing camera would have to have significant feature improvements, not simply reliability improvements. I would guess that the features prospective R-D 1 owners would want most would be a longer-base rangefinder and a larger imager with a higher pixel count. These would be very expensive improvements, and a camera incorporating them would have to cost more, not less.

Even if good sales could result from the strategy of offering a feature-equivalent but "better" camera, it's hard to see how Leica in particular could do it. Low-cost manufacturing is not their strong suit. I suspect that if Leica simply duplicated the R-D 1 piece for piece, the resulting camera would cost significantly more because of their higher labor costs. Remember, the R-D 1 already costs less than the existing film-based Leica M cameras at their new prices!

Also, a big part of the reason Epson was able to be first to the market was that they based the R-D 1 on an existing film-camera design, the Cosina R3a. The only equivalent existing design Leica could use would be the MP/M7 chassis, which is expensive to make. Add the M rangefinder, which is a very complex and expensive part, and you unavoidably would wind up with a very expensive camera.

In short, I simply don't see how Leica could produce a camera similar to the R-D 1 without having it be significantly more expensive. To justify the extra cost, they would have to offer a lot of improvements, which would be even more expensive.

So, to me, the only way Leica is going to be able to make a success of digital rangefinder cameras is to build a no-compromises model that would have to sell at a very high price, and a lower-priced, higher-volume model that would have to be built by a subcontractor to hold the costs down.
 
Hi again all. In response to Skimmel's question about the reliability of info from Bakers, they do seem to be pretty trustworthy. Very old-fashioned personal kind of camera store. The reason I found out about the Digital M rangefinder was because i originally went in enquiring about the RD1. They told me the reason they didn't stock it was because of the upcoming releases from leica...... and obviously as an "official" retailer they are unlikely to stock the only real competition. He gave me the impression that it would be released this year and I was told that the replacement for the d-lux was just a couple of months away.
 
Lets see how the new Zeiss Ikon looks. Its an extremely likely contender as the basis for a newer, more upscale digital RF. The only question is who will have Cosina OEM it.
 
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