lencap
Established
I'm a very new Leica owner - M9/50mm Summicron combo. Like many forum members this was a very significant purchase for me, and I'd like to feel confident that I made the "right" decision on my purchase.
Recently, on another website, the point was made that any digital camera is really a computer, and as such it is subject to becoming obsolete as rapidly as any computer system. His point is that camera enthusiasts have not yet adjusted to this reality, but when they do it will be progressively harder and harder to get people to buy "high end" cameras knowing that they will lose most of their investment in a relatively short timeframe. He suggested, but didn't state outright, that camera owners will move to a more "disposable" approach to camera ownership, leading to a downward price spiral of all used gear with the exception of lenses.
While I find this argument interesting when I think of "high end" cameras, of any brand, it seems to me that owners of these cameras are either professionals who pay for their cameras through charging for their services, or informed/"affluent" enthusiasts who know full well what they are doing with their money. Yes, there is depreciation, but offset that somewhat with the lack of film processing expense.
My question is - should I have considered "digital rot" more fully before taking the plunge into the M9, and should I really expect my "new" M9 to lose half it's value in a year or so? If so, how should I consider future purchases (like moving to the new M)?
Recently, on another website, the point was made that any digital camera is really a computer, and as such it is subject to becoming obsolete as rapidly as any computer system. His point is that camera enthusiasts have not yet adjusted to this reality, but when they do it will be progressively harder and harder to get people to buy "high end" cameras knowing that they will lose most of their investment in a relatively short timeframe. He suggested, but didn't state outright, that camera owners will move to a more "disposable" approach to camera ownership, leading to a downward price spiral of all used gear with the exception of lenses.
While I find this argument interesting when I think of "high end" cameras, of any brand, it seems to me that owners of these cameras are either professionals who pay for their cameras through charging for their services, or informed/"affluent" enthusiasts who know full well what they are doing with their money. Yes, there is depreciation, but offset that somewhat with the lack of film processing expense.
My question is - should I have considered "digital rot" more fully before taking the plunge into the M9, and should I really expect my "new" M9 to lose half it's value in a year or so? If so, how should I consider future purchases (like moving to the new M)?
FrankS
Registered User
Stop worrying about this and enjoy the amazing gear you just got! As for becoming obsolete, in 5 years it will still be capable of producing the results that it is capable of today.
It's all a personal decision, based on your individual preferences and finances.
The M9 came to market 3 years ago, at $7k. They are now selling for about $4k, roughly speaking, depending on usage and condition.
M8s came to market in 2006 at $5500 and are now about $2000.
Being in the computer industry most of my career, this depreciation has been a part of doing business. Sell the old before the bottom drops out, and move to the new. This protects as much of initial investment as possible. However if the camera is working well for you, then just use it. Don't sell it unless you desire some of the new capabilities of later models.
The M9 came to market 3 years ago, at $7k. They are now selling for about $4k, roughly speaking, depending on usage and condition.
M8s came to market in 2006 at $5500 and are now about $2000.
Being in the computer industry most of my career, this depreciation has been a part of doing business. Sell the old before the bottom drops out, and move to the new. This protects as much of initial investment as possible. However if the camera is working well for you, then just use it. Don't sell it unless you desire some of the new capabilities of later models.
Merkin
For the Weekend
The M8 was 4500 bucks brand new, and they still go for about 2000 bucks. It has taken 6 years for it to lose half it's value, and that is in the face of full frame leicas, and aps-c sensored competition (xpro1) that has it beaten by 4.5 stops of ISO. Meanwhile, the Nikon D3 has lost half it's initial value in 5 years, and it is a camera that is better than the M8 when you compare it to it's current competition (that doesn't mean that the M8 is a bad camera, it just means that the D3 is more competitive feature wise compared to the newest and best). It stands to reason that the M9, which is full frame, will hold value better than the APS-C M8, especially since the M8 had a bit more of a reputation for problems than the M9 did. I would say that if you are doing better than a pro DSLR in terms of depreciation, you don't really have anything to worry about.
dave lackey
Veteran
Should you have considered depreciation?
Of course. But only to the point you understand that most everything depreciates. But that is the way the market works.
As Frank said, the M9 will still take excellent photos for decades if you take care of the camera. My M3 is over 60 years old and in mint condition and the photos it takes are not obsolete. I use only cameras I love and don't trade in/up...ever.
The good thing about depreciation is that in time, one of these days, I will own whatever product that is too expensive for me when new. I prefer to buy a particular brand of automobile on the 10/90 plan...when I can pay 10% of it's new car price and still get 90% of the new car...meaning mint condition, low low miles and beautiful. Always have done that with cars and now with Leica cameras.
See? Depreciation works to my advantage for a lot of products. Lenses, however, are another matter.
Whatever...just use what you have a lot and enjoy life. It is too short to agonize over this stuff.
Of course. But only to the point you understand that most everything depreciates. But that is the way the market works.
As Frank said, the M9 will still take excellent photos for decades if you take care of the camera. My M3 is over 60 years old and in mint condition and the photos it takes are not obsolete. I use only cameras I love and don't trade in/up...ever.
The good thing about depreciation is that in time, one of these days, I will own whatever product that is too expensive for me when new. I prefer to buy a particular brand of automobile on the 10/90 plan...when I can pay 10% of it's new car price and still get 90% of the new car...meaning mint condition, low low miles and beautiful. Always have done that with cars and now with Leica cameras.
See? Depreciation works to my advantage for a lot of products. Lenses, however, are another matter.
Whatever...just use what you have a lot and enjoy life. It is too short to agonize over this stuff.
Pickett Wilson
Veteran
Don't buy a new camera looking at the resale value. Buy them and use them up. We are far enough along in the evolution of digital cameras that anything you buy new today should do you as long as you wish.
johannielscom
Snorting silver salts
Sell it within a year or two, before value has dropped significantly. That way you will have sufficiently recouped to invest in the latest-and-greatest.
Or, use it 'til it caves in and put money aside while you do to fund new when the time comes.
Selling after five, six years is unwise because by then it will have lost value to most buyers and it shows in the price.
Or, use it 'til it caves in and put money aside while you do to fund new when the time comes.
Selling after five, six years is unwise because by then it will have lost value to most buyers and it shows in the price.
IEDEI
Well-known
what an odd concept and an odd concern. why worry about resale? make the most of what you have....focus on creating rather than buying/selling.
do people actually think that their $7k camera will be worth $6500 after 3 years? i am amazed if someone is expecting this...
Leica digital cameras have held GREAT 2nd hand value over the years compared with other brands......
do people actually think that their $7k camera will be worth $6500 after 3 years? i am amazed if someone is expecting this...
Leica digital cameras have held GREAT 2nd hand value over the years compared with other brands......
Vickko
Veteran
Depreciation works the other way for me. I've never bought new Leica cameras.
I have bought Leica factory "refurb", including my M8 and M9, at considerable savings over new, and with a decent warranty. And it was only a year or so after the model introduction.
All that may change with the M, but, maybe not. I don't mind reading users reports for a year.
Now, lenses. I've bought new. And their resale value has typically exceeded their purchase price.
I have bought Leica factory "refurb", including my M8 and M9, at considerable savings over new, and with a decent warranty. And it was only a year or so after the model introduction.
All that may change with the M, but, maybe not. I don't mind reading users reports for a year.
Now, lenses. I've bought new. And their resale value has typically exceeded their purchase price.
Why is this odd?
It is only natural to investigate resale value as much as any other feature. This is how it's done with other depreciable tools, like automobiles...
It is only natural to investigate resale value as much as any other feature. This is how it's done with other depreciable tools, like automobiles...
The market forces are no longer at work for this, unfortunately.
tightsqueez
Well-known
If the piece of equipment fits your needs then the true value resides with what you do with it.
Use the M9 as if it's stolen, expose yourself to the world and just maybe you'll see the whole point of any of this… a priceless image.
Use the M9 as if it's stolen, expose yourself to the world and just maybe you'll see the whole point of any of this… a priceless image.
With film cameras, you pay for film. With digital cameras, you don't pay for film and the camera depreciates. Film camera depreciate too...just not as rapidly. I feel it all evens out in my opinion. Stop worrying and use the camera.
rluka
Established
Not that much. I think the expectation is from seeing 2nd hand market too, where the used item price is still "expensive" (okay, that's relative).
After spending money for an M, can I sell it back on at least half the price later ? Not asking for 80%, but 50~60% is realistic enough, isn't it ? Or will there be nobody who wants it anymore because they have the new and used market for newer model of digital M.
Or in case of buying second hand, can the "third hand" price be sold at roughly the same price I bought it from ?
disclaimer: don't have one, but been considering that for lens purchase
IEDEI
Well-known
i am very much into automobiles...and have never bought an automobile based on its resale value. i am far more concerned with driving characteristics, enjoyability, and aesthetics.
v_roma
Well-known
Also, if it matters, I don't think the concept of digital rot applies to digital cameras the same way that it applies to computers. Software is constantly evolving, operating systems included (constant updates for Windows, for example), to the point that a computer will eventually not be able to run current software. This does not apply to cameras, which at most have a couple of firmware updates that are catered to the camera (i.e., will not overwhelm it). Plus what FrankS said. In five years, the camera will still be able to take the same pictures at the same quality it can today.
jamato8
Corroding tank M9 35 ASPH
I didn't buy it to sell it. But, I do wish the focus would stay in calibration. I adjust it myself but now it has gotten to where it needs the dual calibration, which I can not do and it is expensive. That is the one thing I am tired of, the lack of ability to stay mechanically calibrated for focus.
Phil_F_NM
Camera hacker
Don't worry about the depreciation.
I just bought a Nikon D2x which has now been superseded by two generations of digital body. It doesn't have a full frame sensor, doesn't have the high ISO performance of the new bodies and doesn't have the speed. It is still a very capable professional tool though. A top-shelf tank of a camera that can withstand pretty much everything I can put it through.
So when your M9 is 7 years old, if it's still working, it'll make outstanding images just the same.
Phil Forrest
I just bought a Nikon D2x which has now been superseded by two generations of digital body. It doesn't have a full frame sensor, doesn't have the high ISO performance of the new bodies and doesn't have the speed. It is still a very capable professional tool though. A top-shelf tank of a camera that can withstand pretty much everything I can put it through.
So when your M9 is 7 years old, if it's still working, it'll make outstanding images just the same.
Phil Forrest
I didn't say that resale was the most important factor; just AN important factor. Perhaps not to everyone, of course.
It is one of the important factors for me. I choose a few cars based on the minimum performance level and other features as well as aesthetics, and slow depreciation is one of the factors used to cull from that group...
This is of course the alternative method. Choose something that has already depreciated.
I've been tempted to pick up one of these, they are real bargains!