Disheartening

[Vince Lupo]

Interesting discussion. I've just started using FSU Leica-style cameras (FED 2, Zorki 4) and I am really liking them. True, they aren't Leica quality in terms of manufacture, but I just did a teardown and lube of my Zorki 4, and it took two hours. That was the first time I'd ever taken a camera apart and fixed it -- plus no leftover screws! Don't think I'd have the confidence to do that with a Leica, but that's just me. As well, it's nice to be able to buy a vintage camera for under $ 100.00 (actually just bought that Zorki for $ 35.00!) and take pictures with it.

 

[Roger Hicks]

By most definitions they are junk: adaptations (or straight rip-offs) of pre-WW2 designs, often carelessly assembled from components that may well be crudely made. What do you expect for the money, or from an economy where they used to say, "We pretend to work, and they pretend to pay us"?

To a camera repairer, they're a nightmare. People expect cheap cameras to be cheap to fix, but they require more work than better-built cameras.

But they're cheap fun, and some of them take good pictures. Actually, most of them take good pictures if you can work with their shortcomings, but you don't always want soft pictures. At this point, what does 'junk' mean?

Tashi delek,

R.

 

[Ronald_H]

My trusted camera repair guy quoted a rather high price for fixing my FED5 and Zorki-4K. I think he meant to say: 'I don't want to work on that junk, but if you insist, you are going to pay'.

So I sent them to Oleg and now they are lost in transit 🙁

Junk or not, many people like them and as been stated, the do take pictures. There is something nice about a camera you don't have to worry about but still can stun with its output.

 

[Vince Lupo]

If you have a set of small screwdrivers, small pliers, good light, and patience, you can follow the 'How to CLA Your Zorki 4/4K' and you might be able to do it yourself. Word of advice though -- don't do it in a carpeted room, as a dropped screw may be lost forever!

 

[Jack Ketch]

By most definitions they are junk: adaptations (or straight rip-offs) of pre-WW2 designs, often carelessly assembled from components that may well be crudely made. What do you expect for the money, or from an economy where they used to say, "We pretend to work, and they pretend to pay us"?

This is also not true. The early Kievs were assembled with great craftsmanship with the aid of "relocated" German technicians. It was a matter of national pride for the Russians.

FED cameras were originally made in the 1930's by a group of orphans working at the Feodor E. Dzerzhinsky Commune. They were very interested in the work. Many spent long hours learning the skills to replicate the Leicas. They were not careless and it was not forced labor. It was a welcome chance to support themselves and to get a chance to live a productive life.

True, in the 1970's and 1980's, workmanship became much worse and the factory staff couldn't care less, but one could also make the same accusation about American automobiles during the same time frame.

 

[Roger Hicks]

The only two Nikkorexes I ever had were astonishingly good, apart from shutters that sounded like a musket shot. Mind you, they were the rock bottom base interchangeable lens model with no meter.

Cheers,

R.

 

[Roger Hicks]

This is also not true. The early Kievs were assembled with great craftsmanship with the aid of "relocated" German technicians. It was a matter of national pride for the Russians.

FED cameras were originally made in the 1930's by a group of orphans working at the Feodor E. Dzerzhinsky Commune. They were very interested in the work. Many spent long hours learning the skills to replicate the Leicas. They were not careless and it was not forced labor. It was a welcome chance to support themselves and to get a chance to live a productive life.

True, in the 1970's and 1980's, workmanship became much worse and the factory staff couldn't care less, but one could also make the same accusation about American automobiles during the same time frame.

Dear Jack,

Note my use of the word 'often'. I would broadly agree with what you say, except for the blanket assertion that what I said was not true. You did, after all, admit the truth of my assertion in the highlighted portion above.

Cheers,

R.

 

[Vince Lupo]

Somewhat related: Interesting that if you look at what photographers back in the day had to use (Roger Fenton, Timothy O'Sullivan, Erich Salomon, etc), both in terms of equipment and film materials, and the amazing shots they were able to achieve. Even with the questionable quality of this Russian equipment, still miles ahead of what they had.

I still can't even hope to hold a candle to any of their work, even with these seemingly more flexible cameras that we're discussing (which is extremely interesting and educational, by the way!). Don't know if I could've survived working the way they did - I feel spoiled and coddled by comparison, even with the Russian equipment.

 

[fidget]

................. But USING the camera has got to be an enjoyable experience as well, hence why I like using old equipment.

Well said, this is all the more easy for me as I don't have to make a living out of photography....I enjoy using this older kit. When I want to be sure that I get the best performance for any particular job, I use something better.

Enjoy then for what they are.....😉

 

[JohnTF]

FSU, Czech, East German, all have cameras that in PC terms, were "challenged". All on a good day would produce as good a shot as you are capable of, plus, they look interesting, and often the glass is quite interesting.

The MF 30mm Fisheye and the Kiev 88 along with their concomitant low or reasonable prices, and appearances, plus the Feds, Zorkis, Flexarets, Pentacons, Exacta and the one that got away, the Sputnik, represent kind of works in progress. You look at some more than others, and just see the potential.

Add in that, until recently, many repairmen had a similar attitude illustrated in the OP, and you get a project.

Which reminds me of the MG in the garage that needs a battery, fuel pump, and someone to figure why the headlights go out when you try to use the high beams, though the lamps are new. I have not carried so many tools and parts in the trunk, eh, boot, of a car in years, and if it rains I look for an underpass. Is the second seat for a mechanic? I was keeping a long screwdriver behind the seat so I could turn it around and smack the fuel pump to get me home. Alas, it needs more than a smack.

I was happy to see folks on this forum making these cameras perform, which is the same in the case of any photograph in that you are always making equipment perform. I too have a collection, though, sadly I suppose, most are waiting to be used. That said, I just had my 85mm SM f2 Jupiter something, cleaned of the hardened grease, because there are times I like its image using an M8.

The last time I sold a Flexaret, which had been carefully selected and serviced, carried from Prague, I refunded the money and let the guy keep it. He still bitched me out, struck me off his Xmas card list, and flamed me.

The 30mm Fisheye, some of the CZJ glass, and the Kiev lenses, I save to use on my old Mamiya 645 bodies with an adapter, I think made in Poland. A 1000s complete went at the Cleveland show for $100, far less than a repair.

Which is the bottom line, there are times I like using them, there are a variety of ways (many of which I see on RFF, thanks guys) to get them to produce, and I need to call AAA which has had my money for 40 years without towing my car, until now.

Your mileage will vary, but there are some good photos being made, some fun being had, and history, Igor recently told me the K in 4K has something to do with the Russian for lever which begins with a K, ;-)

Regards, John

 

[JohnTF]

Yes I think that is about right, as noted I was first aware of them through Olden and Seymour's in NYC, who sold quite a few. Olden put Jena lenses on the Nikon S2 to sell them for a few dollars less than everyone else.

I recall Olden, they had some interesting marketing strategies, to say the least. We had a dispute and the credit card people knew their name without looking it up. ;-) Their price for a Mamiya C220 evidently was low because they did not include the finder in the advert price, until I said fine I have a prism. Big market for those separate hoods?

J

 

[Vince Lupo]

FSU, Czech, East German, all have cameras that in PC terms, were "challenged". All on a good day would produce as good a shot as you are capable of, plus, they look interesting, and often the glass is quite interesting.

The MF 30mm Fisheye and the Kiev 88 along with their concomitant low or reasonable prices, and appearances, plus the Feds, Zorkis, Flexarets, Pentacons, Exacta and the one that got away, the Sputnik, represent kind of works in progress. You look at some more than others, and just see the potential.

Add in that, until recently, many repairmen had a similar attitude illustrated in the OP, and you get a project.

Which reminds me of the MG in the garage that needs a battery, fuel pump, and someone to figure why the headlights go out when you try to use the high beams, though the lamps are new. I have not carried so many tools and parts in the trunk, eh, boot, of a car in years, and if it rains I look for an underpass. Is the second seat for a mechanic? I was keeping a long screwdriver behind the seat so I could turn it around and smack the fuel pump to get me home. Alas, it needs more than a smack.

I was happy to see folks on this forum making these cameras perform, which is the same in the case of any photograph in that you are always making equipment perform. I too have a collection, though, sadly I suppose, most are waiting to be used. That said, I just had my 85mm SM f2 Jupiter something, cleaned of the hardened grease, because there are times I like its image using an M8.

The last time I sold a Flexaret, which had been carefully selected and serviced, carried from Prague, I refunded the money and let the guy keep it. He still bitched me out, struck me off his Xmas card list, and flamed me.

The 30mm Fisheye, some of the CZJ glass, and the Kiev lenses, I save to use on my old Mamiya 645 bodies with an adapter, I think made in Poland. A 1000s complete went at the Cleveland show for $100, far less than a repair.

Which is the bottom line, there are times I like using them, there are a variety of ways (many of which I see on RFF, thanks guys) to get them to produce, and I need to call AAA which has had my money for 40 years without towing my car, until now.

Your mileage will vary, but there are some good photos being made, some fun being had, and history, Igor recently told me the K in 4K has something to do with the Russian for lever which begins with a K, ;-)

Regards, John

Exceedingly well said.

 

[Dralowid]

Owning a Russian camera is double the fun for those who want it.

In the first instance they can be fun to use...or at least fun to master.

Secondly they can be fun to pull apart and repair or service. What other camera has such a low intrinsic value that one has no fear of making an expensive mistake?

I recently bought a defunct Kiev. It was clear that the whale grease lubricant had solidified in a big way. I sprayed the best part of a can of carburettor cleaner into the workings and the leather covering fell off the outside as the glue melted but hey, it all works fine now.

So if you enjoy a touch of home mechanics and enjoy the process of taking pictures you will enjoy a Russian camera.

This is all my find of fun.

Michael

 

[xayraa33]

If you like FSU cameras, buy 'em and use 'em.

When they break down junk them ,or give them away for parts or learn how to fix them yourself.
If they mean a lot to you, pay the price and get a pro fix them for you or buy another like the one that fell apart by itself on you.

No problem.

 

[Out to Lunch]

I don't think 'junk' is the right word. Bit like cars from the soviet era...when people bought one...first thing they did was to have it taken apart by a mechanic and fine-tune and upgrade it. The UAZ Jeep, for example is a very crude piece of equipment but then again, when things get really rough, it keeps on going.

 

[Vince Lupo]

I don't think 'junk' is the right word. Bit like cars from the soviet era...when people bought one...first thing they did was to have it taken apart by a mechanic and fine-tune and upgrade it. The UAZ Jeep, for example is a very crude piece of equipment but then again, when things get really rough, it keeps on going.

Sounds a bit like my '63 Falcon. My father-in-law hated them when they were new, but I've had mine for 10 years and have put almost 100,000 miles on it myself. Good cheap transportation without any frills.

 

[jarski]

random personal impressions, remotely related to subject 🙂 :

some people justify FSU cameras as affordable option for antique photo hobby, because they fell both German and Soviet products into same category = antique optics and cameras. results differ so little that why bother with Leitz or Zeiss brand price tag.

others think all Soviet products, not just cameras, are scrap metal that should be recycled, no mater what they are. railway rails, Belarus tractors, FED cameras, you name it. products of a fake and brutal system that never should have existed in the first place.

 

[wolves3012]

For me the charm of the FSUs is that they are simple and easily fixed. The collection I have has been (mostly) got off fleabay and none of them cost me a fortune. Almost without exception they have needed some tweaking and/or a CLA but now they all work nicely.

I've learned to dismantle them, adjust them and so on, no special tools and expensive repairman's bills - all my own work. Personally, I don't think they're junk. They are not precision-made, granted, but that very thing makes them appealing to me - simple construction makes simple fixes and I can afford to break one if I'm careless (I haven't, yet, though!).

You have to remember the context in which most of them were made and used: made for the state against set production targets. Quality had to suffer. Then they were exported, for currency reasons and were subsidised. End users bought them for the low price and that means that most don't get serviced because you can't justify the cost of a professional service. It's a wonder most of them work at all, even badly!

Oh and one other thing: once they *are* CLAd and set up well, they do take pretty fine pictures! On another note, I have a Zorki 1 that's a LOT quieter than my Leica IIIC (both have been serviced, so it's not apples and oranges).

 

[David Murphy]

Some are better than others. As noted earlier Kiev models are fairly close to pre-war Contax in quality (but not even remotely like the IIa/IIIa). The Zorki 4 and 4K are good bargains if they are well maintained. The lenses are often excellent considering their low cost: J12, Orion-15, J-8, Fed/Zorki 5cm/3.5

Target prices:

Working Kiev 4, 4a with a J8: $50
Clean Zorki 4 or 4K body: $35
Clean LTM J12; $50
Clean Contax mount J12: $35
Fed/Zorki 3.5cm/3.5 Collapsible: $20

While I generally prefer to take out Leica or Voigtlander gear when I'm seriously shooting, that's good value if you are on a budget.

 

[shadowfox]

I'm sorry, I don't understand the angst.

I have a Kiev 4A and a Zorki 1 and a Fed 2. All of them working, never sent any of them to be serviced. And *all* of them are a joy to use, and the lenses, are all top notch.

Chin up, just enjoy!

PS: IMO, a Leica LTM is *not* more handsome than this: