Do Leicas make you inflexible?

Sparrow said:
Yes and in the 50’s they were running D type Jags with the first multi-point injection systems and no choice of dash trim as performance came first not tradition.
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True - the Japanese and to some extent the Germans seem to have taken over the lead in that respect. Nostalgia: First performance four-wheel drive: Dutch (Spijker) First six-cylinder: Dutch (Spijker) First disc brakes: Britain (Morgan) First rear-window wiper: British (Jensen) etc....
 
jaapv said:
True - the Japanese and to some extent the Germans seem to have taken over the lead in that respect. Nostalgia: First performance four-wheel drive: Dutch (Spijker) First six-cylinder: Dutch (Spijker) First disc brakes: Britain (Morgan) First rear-window wiper: British (Jensen) etc....
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Yes but at issue here is weather the engineer was able to use magnesium alloy, like they make rally car wheels from, or had to stick with brass, the stuff they use in a carriage clock, because it looked better when the paint wore off.

Jaguar had the first disk brake on the track, and one of the Triumph TRs on the road; I had a TR6 in 1974 now that was a victory of tradition over common sense!
 
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I Had One Of Those......

I Had One Of Those......

gabrielma said:
It would be interesting to have an arbitrary camera, you set the aperture to f/2 and it arbitrarily sets it to f/8, or the shutter to 1/100 sec, and it arbitrarily sets it to 1/777 sec. And when you want it to fire, it won't, or it'll fire when you don't want it to. An arbitrary camera, that'd be fun. :D
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it was a G2!!!!!!
 
Sparrow said:
Yes but at issue here is weather the engineer was able to use magnesium alloy, like they make rally car wheels from, or had to stick with brass, the stuff they use in a carriage clock, because it looked better when the paint wore off.

Jaguar had the first disk brake on the track, and one of the Triumph TRs on the road; I had a TR6 in 1974 now that was a victory of tradition over common sense!
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Sorry to be so OT everybody... It is because I am a flexible Leica user :D Yes I was talking road cars :) Afaik Triumph was the first to adopt the technology for road use but Morgan, using Triumph mechanicals (Except the front suspension of course;weird and wonderful ;)) at the time actually scored the "first" by a few weeks. I have had my 1963 TR4 for 15 years now:):)(Morgan 4/4-2 before that)
 
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When is a camera not a camera? Film or otherwise? Rangefinder, DSLR, SLR, etc.? When it just sits in your closet, on your shelf, etc., not being used. I'm very flexibale to grab the camera choice that is going to help me produce the imagery I want.
 
For me at least, there are three key M8 issues.

1. Price. For most of us, it's a lot of money.

2. We will lose a stop shooting at 35mm equivalent and wider. That can be worked around if the high ISO is reasonably good.

3. Digital is a different medium. Digital gives us convenience, can produce output faster, and relieves us of the time and trouble of scanning. Film has a different look, and is more forgiving in the exposure and dynamic range departments. Pick your poison.

None of these issues are deal-breakers for me, with the possible exception of the price.

The M8 appears to have good image quality on at least par with the DMR. People I know and respect who have shot Canon 5D or 20D plus the M8 seem to like the M8. The M8 may lead to the purchase of one additional wider lens, and most of what we already have will work fine.

I tend to photograph mostly with a 35 and a 50. The 50 is my favorite focal length. Trust me, the advantages of a rangefinder apply very much to normal lenses, not just wides. With the M8, my 35mm lenses will become, effectively, almost-50mm lenses. My 50 will become a little "longer." I can experiment, and I think it will be OK. If I want a fast 35mm equivalent, I can pick up a VC 28 Ultron. Leica and VC both have 28mm lenses, and there are other old lenses to try as well.

And my 90 Summicron will become and effective 120mm f/2. Can't wait to try that in a concert hall or theater.

If you're really into very wide lenses, then the crop factor might be an issue. If you are absolutely into a specific focal length other than 50mm, there might be some adjustments. You either deal with it or you don't.

All the quibbles pale when I consider that the M8 is a digital rangefinder that looks, feels and handles much like my film M cameras, and takes Leica lenses. It will allow me to shoot digital the way I like to shoot film--with rangefinder viewing and focusing, using a small, light, unobtrusive camera and fast, high-quality optics. The M8 looks like a winner.

Basically, the M8 bumps each lens up one "notch" in equivalent magnification. My opinion is that the minor focal length differences won't matter. Yes, your 28 will become a 37mm lens instead of a 35. But it's just not all that significant in practical shooting. You'll get used to it in a day.

And if price is an object, there is the R-D1 alternative, albeit with some other issues and risks.

--Peter
 
"Everybody knows that Leica users tend to be conservative people. But after reading a lot over the last months I think some of them aren't really conservative so much as inflexible in their approach to photography"

Huh?

15 years a Leica M shooter. My credentials include growing up in San Francisco and a degree from UC Berkeley - Land of Free Speech. I hang in Venice Beach. If this is conservative, what is liberal?

Because we choose Leicas we are inflexible? This rash sounds like dogma to me.

Best - Paul
 
ywenz said:
Leica film M, like all film cameras are less flexible than digital cameras.
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Yes, but if your area of concern is in only the 50% of SLR capability that is done a touch better with a film RF, then the film RF may be the better camera for you, even tho overall it is less flexible. An example would be film shooters who like short lenses and like wet printing;)

I for one and sure that wet prints will never die, just as platinum did not. Many people I have spoken to whilst exhibiting (a rare thing) find the personal touch of wet process captivting as do I.

I hope the m8 is a huge hit so my new Leica MP is supported for as long as required!
 
who cares what you shoot with as long as you shoot...it's all about the pictures isn't it? that's why I came here from p*net...
 
Hi Paul,
35mmdelux said:
Because we choose Leicas we are inflexible? This rash sounds like dogma to me.
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I don't think you've read my post to the end. Firstly, I wasn't talking about all Leicaites, only about an attitude that appears to be prevalent in a rather vocal subgroup. Secondly, take a look at some of the recent crop factor threads such as this one (after post #40 or so), where you get posts such as "lens X at 40 degrees across the frame is heaven, and taking a step back would spoil the picture for me". That's a valid attitude towards photography, of course, but I don't see anything special about 40 vs. 35 or 45 degrees, and to my mind it seems rather rigid and inflexible.

If you get a device that provides something entirely new and unique and you feel like it could help you move your photography forward, shunning it because it would force you to adapt to a minor change in perspective of one of your lenses seems pretty inflexible to me. And I think this kind of inflexibility is more common among Leica users. I think this is partly because over the years many of them have come to regard a certain small set of focal lengths and perspectives (mainly 28, 35, 50, 75, 90) as natural constants that dominate their photography, to an extent where they have trouble thinking about picture-taking more freely. Maybe you are an exception, but then I don't know you.

Philipp
 
ferider said:
Does driving Ferraris make you less flexible in how to get from A to B?
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If, as the result of driving a Ferrari for a while, you come to think that the only sensible way that you personally can get from A to B is a red sports car, then I think it does. Especially if the new Ferrari is available only in blue.

Philipp
 
ferider said:
But even though you use the S Bahn every day, you might cherish your collection of red sports cars at home that you take out only on the week-end, right?
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Right. But if all users had this attitude, there would be less complaints about how the new blue car is insufficient as a means of transportation ;)

Philipp
 
Surely the most important factor will be the image quality it delivers. Will that sensor be able to do justice to the lenses? Will they have depth and sparkle or will they be flat with dodgy colours like some much digital stuff? If the latter, save your money folks (unless you really cannot tell the difference between rubbish and good stuff - in which case you woulf be better off sticking with a camera 'phone in any event!)

For this we will have to wait and see. All I have seen is the BJP report in which the images were underwhelming and the person who had ben using it was underwhelmed - but it was a pre-production model being used.

Wait and see!
 
Philipp,
This is pure wisdom on your part: "In my opinion being a good photographer should transcend the use of a particular device." The device is a tool and the image is the vision. When the tool, any tool, overwhelms vision there is a form of inflexibility. What made/makes my work interesting is the vision I can bring to a scene. When I am playful, if one understands that as being free to take risks and think as one young, then my images are far better. It doesn't matter what/who the subject is as it's my image that counts. Some of my environmental portraits of "everyday folk" are as meaningful as a US president caught in a revealing mood...and I have imaged both many times. Right now I am semi-retired from professional shooting and can take a Leica body and the VC 40mm or a Rolleiflex 2.8 and shoot away, or not take a single image, happily all day long. Maybe what creates inflexibility is the belief in one's Kit" when it's really the connection between eye-heart-shutter finger that counts as "kit." I agree, Philipp, photographers are often imobilized by many things but it is one's vision that must prevail.
Thanks for being provocative!
John
 
Hi Phillipp,

first: like your ...nuts :D.
To the question : I like my stuff with the red dot and also the CV lens. I’m not fixed on Leica but it is just great engineering and this is something that in general is very rare today. This stuff is as good as it gets (as expensive too,therefore I bought everything used). Everything else is optimized down for profit. "How far can we lower the quality w/o getting too many complaints …?" That’s nowdays principle everywhere and people who value quality have fun with something so old fashinoned and quality obsessed. Of course when you pay some hefty cash for wide lenses that are flat into the corner and have “beautiful MTF’s” which Puts is raving about you’re gonna be pissed if some new camera giving you "finally" access to the digital game :rolleyes:, isn’t taking advantage of that and cropping the important and expensive edge off :bang:. So why have you been paying so much in the first place? The answer will be designated D lenses sooner or later, depending if Leica is already working on the FF M9 or not.
There are always a lot of reasons why anything you bought for a lot of cash is worth it. If it just for the fun of it, the better.
I started out with a Canon AE1 and 2 Simga zooms (3.5 - 5.6/whatever), later just by chance a FD1.4/50 and that got me into fast lenses at all. A 1.2/85L, a T90, another T90 and a 2.8/200 followed. Once I got into theater and concert photography (mostly Jazz) the SLR was just too loud and that’s how I got into Leica. Every tool for it’s purpose and a lot of great shots have been taken with other than Leica cameras. You just have to know your stuff and be there. Keeping that in mind should prevent most folks from getting into the lever discussion on the M8.
There is an old ad from Leica in the 80's maybe [Wer sehen kann, kann auch photographieren. Aber auch sehen will gelernt sein] Who can see, can take pictures. But also seeing needs to be learned.
Once you have learned to visualize the picture you can take a picture with any camera - unless you got stuck in a menue ...:D.
 
steve garza said:
I Had One Of Those......
gabrielma said:
It would be interesting to have an arbitrary camera, you set the aperture to f/2 and it arbitrarily sets it to f/8, or the shutter to 1/100 sec, and it arbitrarily sets it to 1/777 sec. And when you want it to fire, it won't, or it'll fire when you don't want it to. An arbitrary camera, that'd be fun.
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it was a G2!!!!!!
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LOL -- Really? So, arbitrary cameras do exist! ;)
 
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