Do you believe this?

[greyelm]

Check this out. http://www.ebay.com/itm/WWII-Leica-IIIc-Leitz-Wetzlar-wartime-camera-war-reporter-Kriegsberichter-/180820226496?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item2a19b9b1c0#ht_822wt_922

This looks a bit iffy to me. What do you think?

 

[agricola]

Malcolm
I agree. However a lot can be lost in translation. The seller is German and the feedback is 100% and (from a quick look) in German.
Interesting listing and, like you no doubt 🙂 I will keep an eye on it.
Looks to be in good nick?

 

[Mr_Flibble]

I think the Kriegsberichter story is probably bogus,

A nice late/post-war IIIc, maybe even with an unmarked "K"-shutter? Tom can no doubt confirm it.




Added to the watch list...just to see where it goes...

 

[pvdhaar]

Seller states "Purchase at your own risk, no warranty, no return!"

For me, this says enough.. If it were real, the seller would agree to have the camera verified and returned when found fake.

 

[David Hughes]

Hmmm, I'll go along with it being a IIIc but who knows who put the little bit of engraving on it? And don't Leica have records? 'nuff said?

Regards, David

 

[sevo]

"I cannot guarantee this label is original", no returns, and a German seller who makes believe he researched the number and still does not know it would be "KriegsberichtERSTATTer". Sounds extremely bogus.

And instinctively I find a duplicate SS (or whatever other party or army division) and KB on the label a bit odd - inventory numbers were not decorative labels but boring property marks, and the camera should have been either Propaganda Ministry (KB mark) or SS property, but can hardly have been both.

 

[bowieknife]

seems correct IMHO:
http://www.google.lu/search?q=ss+kr..._qf.,cf.osb&fp=360e07391af21c&biw=652&bih=978

 

[haempe]

"I cannot guarantee this label is original", no returns, and a German seller who makes believe he researched the number and still does not know it would be "KriegsberichtERSTATTer". Sounds extremely bogus.

And instinctively I find a duplicate SS (or whatever other party or army division) and KB on the label a bit odd - inventory numbers were not decorative labels but boring property marks, and the camera should have been either Propaganda Ministry (KB mark) or SS property, but can hardly have been both.

The $$-KB number system is correct.
Saw this a few times on equipment and prints/neg sleeves.
This ID was used by censors and for archiving.
$$ stands for Waffen-$$, KB for Kriegsberichter, the number stands for the corespondent/photographer.
Kriegsberichter instead of Kriegsberichterstatter is a usual abbreviation.
I can't/wouldn't say its original, but if it's faked, it is well researched...

 

[David Hughes]

Well, I still can't say for sure but I wonder how long it would take to engrave 8 numbers etc on something. And their must be a lot of archives with records of these things, examples in museums etc. And there's a lot of IIIc's about with the right and genuine year serial numbers.

Regards, David

 

[haempe]

Well, I still can't say for sure but I wonder how long it would take to engrave 8 numbers etc on something. And their must be a lot of archives with records of these things, examples in museums etc. And there's a lot of IIIc's about with the right and genuine year serial numbers.

Regards, David

David, I have seen a camera with a similar engraving, but also without confirmation of originality.
I also saw a camera case and lens case with a similar marking, these are probably original, because no one requested to make money with it. Came from an estate to the museum.
But we should consider, here we are talking about a single propaganda unit (the SS-Kb-Abt.) which has used this ID, maybe a few more than hundred cameras during the war.

But I agree with you, easy to fake, if you have the knowledge about the ID-system and a body with matching serial number.

 

[enasniearth]

iiic ss

iiic ss

the serial number 393xxx is too late to be a wartime camera . was probably delivered post may 1945 - nov 1945 . wartime deliverys ended before 292xxx .
interesting as the typeface appears correct on the engraveing .

 

[David Hughes]

David, I have seen a camera with a similar engraving, but also without confirmation of originality.
I also saw a camera case and lens case with a similar marking, these are probably original, because no one requested to make money with it. Came from an estate to the museum.
But we should consider, here we are talking about a single propaganda unit (the SS-Kb-Abt.) which has used this ID, maybe a few more than hundred cameras during the war.

But I agree with you, easy to fake, if you have the knowledge about the ID-system and a body with matching serial number.

Hi,

Yes, that's the problem. It's a bit of a grey area and could be 100% genuine or 100% fake. It could even be based on the one you saw!

Worse still, some naughty person out there has seen this and he or she may well be looking for an early FED I* or even a 1940 Leica to convert very carefully. And this thread will confirm it could be genuine. And, given the chaos in 1945/46 who can say what's what without a lot of research?

I'm just glad I don't collect such things. I've my own memories of that period and that's enough for me. As I dare say, a lot of others have on both sides. There are times when I wish forgetting was as easy as forgiving.

Regards, David

* Just a thought, what happened to the FED I's when the 3rd Reich reached the USSR's cameras factories? Are there any genuine commandeered FED's out there with the same markings? It happened with binoculars during the Great War...

 

[haempe]

David,
as FED is located in Kharkov, I doubt the Germans had reerected the production during the few month of occupation 1942-43. So I don't believe in Nazi-Leica-copies from the orphanage in Kharkov... 😀

I just want to give some details I've encountered some years ago more or less coincidently. I'm not a collector, just have some interest in history. And to be honest, I'm always sceptical with collectors of SS devotionals. Too many collect this stuff for the wrong reasons.

 

[notraces]

Here's an interesting link -- you can translate it in Google Chrome:

http://www.kamerad.com/schwarz/?p=697

 

[farlymac]

Too bad he doesn't show the back of the camera. Would be intersesting to compare that one, and the one in the OP.

PF

 

[LeicaTom]

Terrible waste of a once great US Army camera 🙁

A #393xxx issued series Leica IIIC camera Nov/Dec 1945 to US Army Forces in Germany, normal bearing shutter "stepper" that someone scribed that horrible Nazi crap on a perfectly good camera to boost the value, the camera is WORTHLESS junk now.

Makes me sick to see a really nice survivor US Army camera defaced like that, just to make a buck and people being too ingnorant about Leica history, they see a stepped rewind platform and think right away it's a wartime camera, just a sad waste of a once fine original (and very rare) postwar US Army Leica camera.

I have written the seller to tell him what he has, despite him knowing the camera is a fake , it will still sell and fool a whole lot of people there at evilbay.

Shame shame :/

Tom

 

[raytoei@gmail.com]

i came to the conclusion that the camera is in too good a condition to be without papers or history. there was no mention of cla or repairs.

 

[rxmd]

A #393xxx issued series Leica IIIC camera Nov/Dec 1945 to US Army Forces in Germany, normal bearing shutter "stepper" that someone scribed that horrible Nazi crap on a perfectly good camera to boost the value, the camera is WORTHLESS junk now.

If it doesn't go much higher, it could still be a nice shooter.

 

[LeicaTom]

If it doesn't go much higher, it could still be a nice shooter.

yeh, true true........."stepper" IIIC's are getting all but almost impossible to find anymore for shooters/user cameras.

I got *lucky* last week and found another 45' IIIC (K) shutter one from August 4th ~ will have to do a full CLA and also a replacement RLM-75 Grey shell, but it will go back to original state as was issued to the US Army in 1945.

Tom

 

[David Hughes]

David,
as FED is located in Kharkov, I doubt the Germans had reerected the production during the few month of occupation 1942-43. So I don't believe in Nazi-Leica-copies from the orphanage in Kharkov... 😀

I just want to give some details I've encountered some years ago more or less coincidently. I'm not a collector, just have some interest in history. And to be honest, I'm always sceptical with collectors of SS devotionals. Too many collect this stuff for the wrong reasons.

Hi,

I was thinking of commandeered stuff mostly. In the UK we had a system of grading and issuing captured stuff. It happened with binoculars in the Great War, as I said, and was/is very useful if you find one in a flea market. (Mostly it happened because the British Army decided to re-equip with the new Zeiss bin's and then decided to go to war with their homeland. Bad timing etc by the politicians, as usual.)

So I wondered if there was a similar scheme for captured stuff elsewhere. That could explain the odd marks and - bitter experience in other fields shows - people never do enough research. Odd really, it's fairly easy, if expensive, to get your hands on the original papers and so on from the official archives.

Regards, David