Do you expect film prices to ever go down?

[markjwyatt]

For me, the cost equation is cost of film + cost of processing, where until I restarted processing at home again very recently, the cost of processing was 3X the cost of the film itself. Say film is $6-$11 a roll (FP4, Tri-X, Acros- online, sometimes at a retail outlet). Processing with high res scans was costing me $20/roll plus shipping ($6) and tax. So I was waiting until I had at least 2-3 rolls to cut the shipping cost. Processing was costing me $22-$27 per roll, so total cost was say $25+$7 = $32 typical, and often took a few weeks before I had results (because I waited for 2-3 rolls minimum). Now that I am developing from home, and digitizing with my Fuji XT-2, cost has gone done on the processing side considerably (say to $2-$3 per roll), my total cost is more like $10-12 typical. I also have a couple of bulk loaders, so I can make another cost impact, maybe to $5-$7 per roll scanned (B&W only). Of course color is now more expensive, and I do not intend to process color at home, at least not in the near term, and I happen to have a nice digital camera for digitizing. Plus my time invested per roll is up quite a bit. If you do not have a digital camera and set-up then you need to scan or have a darkroom. My dad told me many years ago, photography as a hobby was expensive, and that really has not changed, or as @Larry Cloetta said quoting the Talking Heads, "Same as it always was". I am sure many others on this forum have been bulk loading and home processing for a long time, so your equations may look different to you.

EDIT: Just glanced again at bulk load prices. Kodak bulk rolls are much more than all the rest, including Ilford. TMax or Tri-X $130 w/rebate at Freestyle vs. $80 for FP4+ or HP5plus. Fomo, and Kentmere more like $55. Not a good sign to see Kodak that high.

 

[zuiko85]

Been thinking about this topic and believe the best outcome we could expect is that film price increases slow down, to the level of general inflation.
The trouble with old folks like me is that we remember very well what things used to cost....but seem to forget what our income was for the same time period.

 

[Waus]

There's some more film news here (Kodak):https://silvergrainclassics.com/en/...iAR9Gx_D9F-xA4lNIu8WXm7OkUlTHS7LzocqKqO5pUOcw

 

[Solinar]

You all realize that with regards to consumer grade color films, there doesn't seem to be a situation of over supply - Fujicolor C200 seems to be out of stock at the moment.

With that said - I just placed an order with Freestyle for 6 rolls of 35mm Tri-X.

 

[presspass]

Back in the 1970s when two brothers from Texas tried to corner the silver market, prices rose astronomically. When the effort to corner the market failed and silver prices tanked, film prices did not follow. So no matter what happens with silver or film demand, I don't see the maufacturers cutting their prices; if their cost of production drops, that will just increase their profit margin. That being said, I grateful we still have the selection we do.

 

[markjwyatt]

There's some more film news here (Kodak):https://silvergrainclassics.com/en/...iAR9Gx_D9F-xA4lNIu8WXm7OkUlTHS7LzocqKqO5pUOcw

I listened in yesterday. Alaris is saying two new products, one a relaunch of an older product and one new product. Plus-X and Kodak Gold 120 size were both eliminated, but no clues beyond that.

 

[zuiko85]

Back in the 1970s when two brothers from Texas tried to corner the silver market, prices rose astronomically. When the effort to corner the market failed and silver prices tanked, film prices did not follow. So no matter what happens with silver or film demand, I don't see the maufacturers cutting their prices; if their cost of production drops, that will just increase their profit margin. That being said, I grateful we still have the selection we do.

You missed factoring in sheer volume. When the Koch brothers pulled that stunt film was all there was for millions of folks to take pictures with. That and in the case of 35mm, the movie industry used just trillions of feet of film so that kept consumer 35mm for still cameras cheap due to volume.
That volume will never come back.....and neither will film prices.

 

[PKR]

When I was in art school in the late 1990s, 36 exposure rolls of Tri-X and Tmax 400 were $3.50 at the local camera store. The store went out of business a few years ago when the owner retired, so I buy my film from B&H now. Tmax 400 is $7.99 a roll now.

Price of silver in 1990

January 2, 1990. $5.21 oz
https://sdbullion.com/silver-prices-1990



12/31 Spot price

Dec 31, 2020 13:00 NY Time
US Dollar
26.31Bid
26.41Ask
High: 26.65Low: 26.23

https://www.kitco.com/charts/livesilver.html

I'm glad i still have film in the freezer.

Happy New Year Chris.

pkr

 

[TheMapleLeafForever]

I listened in yesterday. Alaris is saying two new products, one a relaunch of an older product and one new product. Plus-X and Kodak Gold 120 size were both eliminated, but no clues beyond that.

Any clue at all which older product?

 

[hap]

Been thinking about this topic and believe the best outcome we could expect is that film price increases slow down, to the level of general inflation.
The trouble with old folks like me is that we remember very well what things used to cost....but seem to forget what our income was for the same time period.

I presume you are speaking for your self.

 

[jawarden]

Film prices are not going to go down so we need to make our incomes go up.

 

[zuiko85]

I presume you are speaking for your self.

Yes. That is why I said ‘like me’.
But. Didn’t mean to presume all old folks are like me.

 

[hap]

Yes. That is why I said ‘like me’.
But. Didn’t mean to presume all old folks are like me.

Old folks like me = me. 🙂

 

[Larry Cloetta]

You missed factoring in sheer volume. When the Koch brothers pulled that stunt film was all there was for millions of folks to take pictures with. ......

I realize that blaming the Koch brothers for things they didn’t do is something of a national pastime, but it was the Hunt Brothers, who were assumed to be evil before the assumed to be evil mantle fell to the Koch brothers.

https://www.traderslog.com/hunt-brothers-silver

 

[Benjamin Marks]

Inflation isn't the issue here. It is a question of a manufacturer (or several) spreading their fixed costs over a diminishing number of units sold per year. Time was, film was a huge cash cow for Kodak. All the machinery was in place, the processes were well understood and they could pump out millions and millions of square feet of film per year to a consumer base who loved their product. But all that has changed.

It is like asking whether you expect the price of oil paints or drawing charcoal to decrease over time. Nope. The market is fixed or shrinking - not a recipe for price drops.

 

[zuiko85]

I realize that blaming the Koch brothers for things they didn’t do is something of a national pastime, but it was the Hunt Brothers, who were assumed to be evil before the assumed to be evil mantle fell to the Koch brothers.

https://www.traderslog.com/hunt-brothers-silver

Ah, thanks, my mistake. And something I actually remember from when it happened. Didn’t work out for them if I recall, price collapsed before they could unload.
Should have tried the spot lead market. Way back when, late 70’s I worked in automotive retail. We were giving the customer a $3 battery core credit but received only $2.50 per battery from the reclaimer. Suddenly it seamed, the core redemption value shot up, we gave the same $3 to the customer but for a short time were getting as much as $8 or $9 per battery. Didn’t last long, but was an eye opener to how volatile spot metal markets could be.

 

[helen.HH]

Inflation isn't the issue here.

It is like asking whether you expect the price of oil paints or drawing charcoal to decrease over time. Nope. The market is fixed or shrinking - not a recipe for price drops.

Loved this Benjamin..,

Haha on Me..,
Rings true for Me, I still buy all three
Oil paints, charcoal and Film

I the odd ball out. 😉

 

[agentlossing]

Demand for film is certainly up from the bottom in recent years - but I think the price hikes will remain in place, at least for a while. Since producing film in smaller quantities doesn't necessarily decrease the cost of production (being made in batches, which can be of larger quantities than what is being produced lately), you'd think increasing the volume of film produced might drop prices, but then you have to factor in that demand for the raw materials has gone down, and those prices probably correspondingly rose, so that now, if a film producer ramps up production, they'll still pay more for the raw materials... at least until supply and demand catches up with all these changes. That could be a delay of years, easily, even assuming demand for film continues to rise.

I think the best thing we can look for is having the films we want in stock when we want them, which has been iffy for a while due to increasing demand without correspondingly increased supply. Without seeing prices hiked past what's reasonable, which often happens when the best film distributors are out of stock.

 

[gavinlg]

There's some more film news here (Kodak):https://silvergrainclassics.com/en/...iAR9Gx_D9F-xA4lNIu8WXm7OkUlTHS7LzocqKqO5pUOcw

This is amazing.

And I'll gladly absorb the recent couple of price rises if it means Kodak can bring some new films to the market.

 

[Horatio]

Someone at Photrio a couple months ago suggested hoarding as much as possible prior to annual price increases. Not a bad idea, provided one has the cold storage, and is not greedy. I think bulk offers the best economy, but not all films are offered that way. Perhaps stocking up a 1-2 year supply of one's favorite film is a good idea while it is available. My bulk roll of Ultrafine Finesse 400 should last a year or more. I'm still deciding which medium or slow speed film to stock up on. Arista Edu 100 looks promising, but it's $52 per 100'. Kentmere is over $60 now.