nongfuspring
Well-known
I had some similar issues with developing medium format film, I ended up with uneven development and areas where the developer "welled" for a bit too long. Possibly an issue with my pouring/dilution/tank, but I tried it again (everything the same) with a prewash and the negs came out perfectly, so ever since then I prewash. I don't think it would be such an issue with 35mm but with medium format it gives me quite a bit of peace of mind, especially with faster dev times.
Brian Atherton
Well-known
No, never ever did for tank developing 35mm, 120 and 5x4 when I worked professionally in a darkroom. Never used a stop bath, either. Just straight out with the developer and in with the fixer.
Ronald M
Veteran
There is no reason to prewash film unless you are doing sheet film buy hand and shuffling thru stack.
Your initial immersion procedure is faulty if you get uneven development. How ever you do it, the wet/dry edge MUST start and proceed rapidly across the film without stopping. Agitation MUST be vigorous and random and you will have no problems.
If you get marks, people say to slow agitation and presoak which is exactly the wrong thing to do.
Your initial immersion procedure is faulty if you get uneven development. How ever you do it, the wet/dry edge MUST start and proceed rapidly across the film without stopping. Agitation MUST be vigorous and random and you will have no problems.
If you get marks, people say to slow agitation and presoak which is exactly the wrong thing to do.
Roger Hicks
Veteran
Post 44:
Ilford Party Line: theoretically a bad idea but probably does no harm in the real world. Certainly confers no advantages. May involve development time adjustments.
As William points out, it's a REALLY bad idea with two-bath devs.
I've never done it, and never seen the point.
Good books: Haist, Glafkides (Google them, separately)
Cheers,
R.
Ilford Party Line: theoretically a bad idea but probably does no harm in the real world. Certainly confers no advantages. May involve development time adjustments.
As William points out, it's a REALLY bad idea with two-bath devs.
I've never done it, and never seen the point.
Good books: Haist, Glafkides (Google them, separately)
Cheers,
R.
Gareth Rees
Established
No, I never have.
KevinVH
Nikonian!
Like some said before, I tried it, and it didn't do anything to the negatives, so for the past 2 years I just put the developer in right away. I don't see the need for prewashing except for wasting water.
DNG
Film Friendly
Well, and update is do for me. I, now only shoot TMX400 in HC110 -H- (1:60).
I do pre-wash in running filtered tap water for 3 minutes (I just picked 3min, no reasoning really), then dump the balance.
The water has a slight red tint as I dump it..(Maybe I should rinse it longer
)So, for me the Pre-wash does wash a coating off the film.
And, I can't say if it is increasing the deveoping time or not because I make test roll at various ISOs as described below,
and just pick the best ISO, whenever I use a different film right of the bat, with a Pre-wash included.
The way I get my develop times is simple... I shoot a test roll at from ISO 200-1600, and develop for the recommended times by the Master Developer Chart App
(which an updated database was just released today for Android devices -7-17-2014)..
Then I look at negatives for the best exposure and contrast.. That will give me what ISO I should use as my 'normal' speed.
But, I think if someone is wanting to start using a pre-wash, I think an "ISO" test roll is needed to determine the ISO with a pre-wash included...
that way, you have no surprises by increasing the developer time with an arbitrary percentage mark up.
Roger Hicks
Veteran
Or, far more likely, it washes a dye out of it -- a dye that has already done its work during exposure...
Also, are you actually developing to ISO contrast and speed? It sounds more like you're relying on exposure indices (EIs). This is a good idea -- but it's a bad idea to confuse ISO and EI.
Cheers,
R.
Moto-Uno
Moto-Uno
In my limited experience, with quite a few different films,none of them mention pre-washing. Does anyone have manufacturers info that suggests otherwise? I'm talking about available films. Peter
Roger Hicks
Veteran
Dear Peter,
Maco has recommended it in the past but I don't know about their current films. Then again, Maco instructions are sometimes idiosyncratic. Often superb products; often rotten documentation.
Cheers,
R.
Roger Hicks
Veteran
My most recent post before this was over a year ago. I don't know why this is now appearing as a "recent post" but I've seen the same problem before, with my own posts and others. There has to be something wrong with the program.
Cheers,
R.
Cheers,
R.
PrestonR
Established
I had some problems with uneven development with fomapan films, so I started pre washing my film (tmax, trix, fomapan) and never had a problem. I just rinse with water until the water is no longer discolored.
bobby_novatron
Photon Collector
I'll often pre-wash with 120 film to remove the anti-halation layer. Sometimes I'll pre-wash with C-41 35mm film -- there are some kinds of C-41 film seem to have a dye layer (anti-halation layer?) that comes out with a quick rinse. Subjectively the pre-wetting seems to provide more even development, but I have no data to back that up.
Most B+W film I won't pre-wash, with a couple exceptions. Tmax100 turns my rinse water pink, so I tend to pre-wash TMY100.
There are members here who have been doing developing much longer than I have (my film adventures are only about 5 years old) so I defer to those with much more experience than myself.
Most B+W film I won't pre-wash, with a couple exceptions. Tmax100 turns my rinse water pink, so I tend to pre-wash TMY100.
There are members here who have been doing developing much longer than I have (my film adventures are only about 5 years old) so I defer to those with much more experience than myself.
Bill Clark
Veteran
Roger Hicks
Veteran
Dear Bill,
Yeah, but what do they know? They only make the stuff, and want people to get the best results.
Cheers,
R.
bobby_novatron
Photon Collector
"A pre-rinse is not recommended because it can lead to uneven processing." -- Ilford product sheet, page 3
Sounds like a conspiracy from the anti-pre-wash lobby.
Sounds like a conspiracy from the anti-pre-wash lobby.
giganova
Well-known
Ea
Ea
Thank you for bringing a bit of sanity back into this weird discussion!
No, I don't prewash because the hundreds of films that I have developed turned out perfect.
No, I don't worry that the film might have a different temperature than the chemicals. The film has a negligible heat capacity compared to a liter of water and thermalizes within seconds.
No, I don't use $19.- Photo Flo washing aid because one drop of dish soap has the exact same effect.
No, I don't wash my film in distilled or de-mineralized water because I never had any water marks.
No, I don't use water softener chemicals, I use -- wait! -- tap water.
No, I don't use drum rollers, I do inversion agitation because agitation has no effect on grain size.
No, I don't invert the development tank exactly at the top of the minute because it doesn't matter as long as I invert a few times every minute or two.
No, I don't care about the "optimum" temperature of the chemicals and simply adjust the time.
No, I don't pour away the developer after each film because I can develop up to three batches of film with the same developer if I add 10% development time for each consecutive batch.
No, I don't measure my fixer strength, I just use it until it turns yellow.
No, I don't experiment with different developers, dilution, or alternative chemicals; my "standard" developer works just fine.
No, I don't use isopropyl alcohol as a drying agent.
I've developed hundreds of films with perfect results without being anal compulsive or believing in alchemie.
Ea
I started developing my own film recently, and I've taken a very half-assed approach to it. I load in the wardrobe (with light leaks
Thank you for bringing a bit of sanity back into this weird discussion!
No, I don't prewash because the hundreds of films that I have developed turned out perfect.
No, I don't worry that the film might have a different temperature than the chemicals. The film has a negligible heat capacity compared to a liter of water and thermalizes within seconds.
No, I don't use $19.- Photo Flo washing aid because one drop of dish soap has the exact same effect.
No, I don't wash my film in distilled or de-mineralized water because I never had any water marks.
No, I don't use water softener chemicals, I use -- wait! -- tap water.
No, I don't use drum rollers, I do inversion agitation because agitation has no effect on grain size.
No, I don't invert the development tank exactly at the top of the minute because it doesn't matter as long as I invert a few times every minute or two.
No, I don't care about the "optimum" temperature of the chemicals and simply adjust the time.
No, I don't pour away the developer after each film because I can develop up to three batches of film with the same developer if I add 10% development time for each consecutive batch.
No, I don't measure my fixer strength, I just use it until it turns yellow.
No, I don't experiment with different developers, dilution, or alternative chemicals; my "standard" developer works just fine.
No, I don't use isopropyl alcohol as a drying agent.
I've developed hundreds of films with perfect results without being anal compulsive or believing in alchemie.
Rayt
Nonplayer Character
Thank you for bringing a bit of sanity back into this weird discussion!
No, I don't prewash because the hundreds of films that I have developed turned out perfect.
No, I don't worr...
I've developed hundreds of films with perfect results without being anal compulsive or believing in alchemie.
Absolutely! We need more posts like yours to demystify b/w photography. There is no need to make it more complicated than it is. Didn't Weegee process his film out of the trunk of his car? Oh such and such film is best with this exotic developer in 68F with a dash of vitamin C with a fine chianti and fava beans, blah blah blah
k__43
Registered Film User
I always pre-wash 120 almost never with 135.
I've read somewhere that this is necessary, don't ask me where.
I've also read that it helps with Shanghai GP3 and its problem where the back paper print would emerge in the emulsion. Regardless I still see that effect every once in a while. So I stopped using GP3 for anything except camera testing.
I use demineralized water for mixing chemicals and for the very last rinse with wetting agent if anyone is interested.
I've read somewhere that this is necessary, don't ask me where.
I've also read that it helps with Shanghai GP3 and its problem where the back paper print would emerge in the emulsion. Regardless I still see that effect every once in a while. So I stopped using GP3 for anything except camera testing.
I use demineralized water for mixing chemicals and for the very last rinse with wetting agent if anyone is interested.
Roger Hicks
Veteran
You're absolutely right: it's not difficult, but equally, if you're too sloppy about it, your negatives will lack consistency. They'll still be printable in most cases, which I take to be your definition of "perfect". A tiny bit more care, without being in the least anal-retentive, does however pay dividends.Thank you for bringing a bit of sanity back into this weird discussion!
No, I don't prewash because the hundreds of films that I have developed turned out perfect.
No, I don't worry that the film might have a different temperature than the chemicals. The film has a negligible heat capacity compared to a liter of water and thermalizes within seconds.
No, I don't use $19.- Photo Flo washing aid because one drop of dish soap has the exact same effect.
No, I don't wash my film in distilled or de-mineralized water because I never had any water marks.
No, I don't use water softener chemicals, I use -- wait! -- tap water.
No, I don't use drum rollers, I do inversion agitation because agitation has no effect on grain size.
No, I don't invert the development tank exactly at the top of the minute because it doesn't matter as long as I invert a few times every minute or two.
No, I don't care about the "optimum" temperature of the chemicals and simply adjust the time.
No, I don't pour away the developer after each film because I can develop up to three batches of film with the same developer if I add 10% development time for each consecutive batch.
No, I don't measure my fixer strength, I just use it until it turns yellow.
No, I don't experiment with different developers, dilution, or alternative chemicals; my "standard" developer works just fine.
No, I don't use isopropyl alcohol as a drying agent.
I've developed hundreds of films with perfect results without being anal compulsive or believing in alchemie.
Highlight 1: I live in a very hard water area so I do: I get drying marks otherwise. When I lived in a soft water area I didn't.
Highlight 2: It does, actually. More agitation = bigger grain and more film speed. The effect is however unlikely to be noticeable in most cases.
Highlight 3: It's generally reckoned -- entirely accurately -- that if you use constant agitation you need about 10-15% less agitation than with 10 seconds/minute. Consistency costs very little, though the differences between different types of agitation are small.
Highlight 4: This is not a very good idea if you want your negatives to last. Testing the fixer is quick and easy -- see http://www.rogerandfrances.com/subscription/ps how process 35-120.html about half-way down. Refusing to use such a quick, easy test is pointlessly macho.
Highlight 5: Ilford used to give a talk called "The Science of Colour, The Alchemy of Black and White."
I am not entirely ignorant on the subject, having talked to numerous manufacturers and researchers; written several well-regarded books on the subject; and processed thousands of films over nearly 50 years in Bermuda (where I started), England, Scotland, the United States and France.
Cheers,
R.