Do you want image stabilisation in camera?

Do you want image stabilisation in camera?

  • Yes

    Votes: 155 45.7%

  • No

    Votes: 184 54.3%
  • Total voters
    339
Well maybe I went a bit far with that generalisation but a Leica in many peoples eyes is an elitist product and is not bought by them as a reliable tool for making images of a particular genre or in a particular working environment etc etc. It is many things to many people.
 
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I doubt that is true. Last weekend I was shooting the Tour de France with my DMR and M9, and the "Cell Phone Crowd" only had positive comments in the vein of - hey! Look,that's a Leica.
As a comparison, my car, a rather banal Jaguar X-Type (for the uninitiated, that is like a Panasonic-Leica on four wheels) draws far more negative attention.
 
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The cell phone crowd recognizing a Leica means nothing other than they recognize an expensive camera. I guess that is positive if your main market is the well heeled crowd and that crowd gets the benefit of being recognized as users of expensive cameras. Leica marketing at work.

Bob
 
jaapv said:
I doubt that is true. Last weekend I was shooting the Tour de France with my DMR and M9, and the "Cell Phone Crowd" only had positive comments in the vein of - hey! Look,that's a Leica.
As a comparison, my car, a rather banal Jaguar X-Type (for the uninitiated, that is like a Panasonic-Leica on four wheels) draws far more negative attention.
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What would you say the general perception of anything made in England is in France?
 
jaapv said:
I doubt that is true. Last weekend I was shooting the Tour de France with my DMR and M9, and the "Cell Phone Crowd" only had positive comments in the vein of - hey! Look,that's a Leica.
As a comparison, my car, a rather banal Jaguar X-Type (for the uninitiated, that is like a Panasonic-Leica on four wheels) draws far more negative attention.
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I said in some eyes. And I said it many things to many people meaning to some it is simply the best tool for the job and to others its is small and inconspicous. How many people tape over the red dot and why?
 
Roger Hicks said:
Why, after all, should a rich man not be interested in (and indeed good at) photography?
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I don't think that was the proposition. There may be a marginally higher proportion of people interested in photography among the rich due to increased lifestyle exposure (whether or not that precludes point-and-shoots is another matter), but the idea was that the rich want point-and-shoots just like everybody else wants point-and-shoots. This sounds like a reasonable assumption to me.
 
rxmd said:
I think the key word here is "professional". Professionals who use the digital Ms exist, but they are maybe not that many. From a professional you get opinions such as Roger's, which, as I understood it, basically seems to be "as long as I still get the compact reliable rangefinder I use for my work, it's fine whatever they put in there".

However, from the non-professionals you get opinions such as "Image stabilization? I might just as well buy an SLR". Here you find people who buy a Leica not for what it gives them, but for what it isn't. For those people, digital developments pretty much end with the M9. What can Leica do for the M10 that competes with tomorrow's cameras, so as not to spoil it for this segment of their target demographic? Put another different sensor in it and that's it. Of course, innovation and engineering end here, but then again, for people averse to progress this means heaven.

If that works as a business model, by all means go ahead, but we have examples of camera companies where it didn't.

I think Leica is seeing the world pretty much as you describe it, or else they wouldn't have developed the S line. That is mainly geared towards professionals who see the logic, while not "different" and 1950's-style lacquered-brass-authentic enough to be interesting for "advanced amateurs" (or, to put it polemically, bobos and affluent pentagenarians+). I think it's a good idea for Leica to have a second leg to stand on camera-wise. Some engineering and development has to go on, otherwise it's just stagnation. And then you end up like Rollei, with a name slapped on dime-a-dozen Chinese compact cameras, ballpoint pens and lighters, and an assembly hall somewhere where people put together 1950s-style TLRs from leftover spare parts to sell under a different name.
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I think we are largely in agreement. Professionals want to get the job done and whilst appreciating build quality and all the other tactile things, can at least see when change has produced an advance without being sentimental.

Unfortunately Leica have to pander to those wanting status symbols. I bet they'd happily sacrifice all this if they could get the professional market back. They have no chance in the DSLR market because Nikon and Canon are too far ahead (by Leicas own admission) even though the R series lenses are awesome. In this market the brass and black enamel doesnt count for anything and professionals prioritise choice based on performance.

Regarding the S2 I hope it sells but I can not realistically see pros ditching the H system for this. Certainly fashion and advertising pros are not having a brilliant time at the moment. Somthing 3x the price is going to take some shifting.

Best wishes

Richard
 
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Roger Hicks said:
On a separate but related topic, I completely agree that Leica needs to make more than just the M-series (as of course they do). On the other hand, it strkes me as completey wrong-headed to say that they should stop making M-series and make something else, or redesign the M-series so that it ceases to bear much resemblance to an M-series.

Cheers,

R
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Dear Roger
You have already said that a bicycle can not be substantially changed so personally I am not advocating anything so radical as ending the m series! What I wish for is something with m functions but contemporary refinements. The rangefinder and optics are the unique selling points. The rest can be improved. I am sure there is a professional market. The appeal of the film M is mechanical reliability. However once you put a digital sensor in it you are entering the high tech world and it does not make sense to say all mechanical "timeless" classic oh but with a didital sensor. Once you enter the digital arena you might as well make it as technically advanced as you can.

Given the choice id have spot metering, matrix metering, image stabilising, decent TTL flash, weather sealing, a playback screen with decent resolution, and anything else which can make life easier. Those wanting simplicity can configure the camera to their own preferences and turn the unrequired functions off! I suppose what I really want is the electronics and refinements of a contemporary DSLR but without the mirror prism and with a rangefinder focusing. Would i pay £5,000 for that? In an instant.

best wishes

Richard
 
Richard Marks said:
Dear Roger
You have already said that a bicycle can not be substantially changed so personally I am not advocating anything so radical as ending the m series! What I wish for is something with m functions but contemporary refinements. The rangefinder and optics are the unique selling points. The rest can be improved. I am sure there is a professional market. The appeal of the film M is mechanical reliability. However once you put a digital sensor in it you are entering the high tech world and it does not make sense to say all mechanical "timeless" classic oh but with a didital sensor. Once you enter the digital arena you might as well make it as technically advanced as you can.

Given the choice id have spot metering, matrix metering, image stabilising, decent TTL flash, weather sealing, a playback screen with decent resolution, and anything else which can make life easier. Those wanting simplicity can configure the camera to their own preferences and turn the unrequired functions off! I suppose what I really want is the electronics and refinements of a contemporary DSLR but without the mirror prism and with a rangefinder focusing. Would i pay £5,000 for that? In an instant.

best wishes

Richard
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Dear Richard,

I'm sure that many of us would like all that, but you simply can't put spot metering or matrix metering into a rangefinder (in fact, no one has ever put true spot metering into a reflex) because there's nowhere to put the sensors. A lot of the electronic wish list, I am reasonably sure, comes down to power consumption (heat dissipation, processor speed, battery life) and the one thing I DON'T want is a body any bigger than the M9, which is chubby enough already. A 'contemporary DSLR' is a LOT bigger than an M9.

Weather sealing? Sure, more would be nice, but ask Leica users how many have had their M8/8.2/9 pack up in normal or even heavy rain. I don't have a great problem with a camera I can't clean with a fire-hose (though I used to have one, a Nikonos, until I lent it to a friend who dropped it over the side on a diving holiday).

Cheers,

R.
 
Roger Hicks said:
Weather sealing? Sure, more would be nice, but ask Leica users how many have had their M8/8.2/9 pack up in normal or even heavy rain.
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That's cos they put them away at the first sign of the wet stuff😉
I don't have a great problem with a camera I can't clean with a fire-hose (though I used to have one, a Nikonos, until I lent it to a friend who dropped it over the side on a diving holiday).
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Why didn't he dive to retrieve it? 😕
 
Roger Hicks said:
Dear Richard,

I'm sure that many of us would like all that, but you simply can't put spot metering or matrix metering into a rangefinder (in fact, no one has ever put true spot metering into a reflex) because there's nowhere to put the sensors. A lot of the electronic wish list, I am reasonably sure, comes down to power consumption (heat dissipation, processor speed, battery life) and the one thing I DON'T want is a body any bigger than the M9, which is chubby enough already. A 'contemporary DSLR' is a LOT bigger than an M9.

Weather sealing? Sure, more would be nice, but ask Leica users how many have had their M8/8.2/9 pack up in normal or even heavy rain. I don't have a great problem with a camera I can't clean with a fire-hose (though I used to have one, a Nikonos, until I lent it to a friend who dropped it over the side on a diving holiday).

Cheers,

R.
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Dear Roger

Id never say can't. It is not that long ago that a digital rangefinder was said to be theoretically impossible. Id say difficult yes impossible no. Ironically the ill fated M5 is not that far from spot metering!
Regarding the wish list and power consumption this is often cited but i still would say difficult rather than impossible.
Agreed size is an issue but actually some of the DSLR's Olympus / Pentax are getting extremely compact.
I suppose i am not easilly pleased but then in my own profession I am involved in research and always get interested when some one says it cant be done!
Regarding weather sealing, its not so much the requirement to withstand heavy rain as some measure of the quality of seals in general against moisture, dust and dirt when working something hard. The M8 has certainly proved a little fragile in terms of reliability and some of this may boil down to build quality and changes in temprature and humidity.

Incidentally my car is a bit lacking in weather sealing and the July copy of black and white photography has had a good soaking on the way home from work 😡!

Best wishes

Richard
 
Richard Marks said:
Dear Roger

Id never say can't. It is not that long ago that a digital rangefinder was said to be theoretically impossible. Id say difficult yes impossible no. Ironically the ill fated M5 is not that far from spot metering!
Regarding the wish list and power consumption this is often cited but i still would say difficult rather than impossible.
Agreed size is an issue but actually some of the DSLR's Olympus / Pentax are getting extremely compact.
I suppose i am not easilly pleased but then in my own profession I am involved in research and always get interested when some one says it cant be done!
Regarding weather sealing, its not so much the requirement to withstand heavy rain as some measure of the quality of seals in general against moisture, dust and dirt when working something hard. The M8 has certainly proved a little fragile in terms of reliability and some of this may boil down to build quality and changes in temprature and humidity.

Incidentally my car is a bit lacking in weather sealing and the July copy of black and white photography has had a good soaking on the way home from work 😡!

Best wishes

Richard
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Dear Richard,

When it comes to metering, I really suspect that "can't" is the right word. My understanding of SLR meters is that the cells are in the diverted light path, and as there is no diverted light path in an RF camera, there is nowhere to put the cells. The only possibilities in an RF are therefore reading the light reflected from the shutter (the universal approach today) or the lollipop-on-a-stick of the M5, which is about as 'spot' as an SLR 'spot'.

Power consumption is almost certainly a matter of time when it comes to battery capacity, but heat dissipation from powerful processors is a non-trivial matter and likely to remain so for quite a while, I suspect.

The smaller DSLRs are not, as far as I am aware, 24x36mm and I fear that the bulk of the components will render it difficult to the point of impossible to incorporate moving-sensor IS in an M9-size body for a very long time, possibly forever. For processor-based IS, we're back to heat and battery life.

Point fully taken about seals being more against dust, etc., than rainstorms (as with 'waterproof' watches) but I've hardly 'babied' my M8, which I've had since shortly after it came out, and it's not been a problem. The Great Internet Whinge, often from people with no experience whatsoever of whatever they are talking about, magnifies all problems beyond belief. This is not to say that problems never exist, but if Leicas were as bad as some on the internet say, they'd never sell more than one camera per person.

Finally, I don't think anyone ever said a digital RF was impossible for all time, just that it was a damn' sight more difficult than most people seemed to think, especially the ones who didn't understand lens-to-sensor requirements. Leica themselves said they'd do a 24x36 sensor eventually, but that they didn't know when.

Cheers,

R.
 
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I haven't read the whole thread, so I'm sorry if this has been mentioned already...
I'd like focus confirmation. This would make using long lenses (especially for glasses wearers) easier, for one. The optical telescope of the M8/M9 is a bit longer than the film M bodies and this exaggerates the effect of the eye not being centered in the finder, possibly leading to focus errors. Just a focus confirmation LED in the finder would both help train the user to keep the eye centered in the VF and make focus that much easier and quicker. Not that it's difficult, but assistance would be an asset to the system.

Another thing that I've missed are the f/5.6 and f/16 DOF notches found in the M2 finder. I loved those focus aids. they made sense, were easy to use and Leica should never have omitted the feature.

Aside from that, a better center-weighted metering pattern a-la M6, better WX sealing and a Leicavit-sized extra battery pack would be great. Maybe I'll make one...

Phil Forrest
 
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