Does Agitating Need To be Inversions?

Spleenrippa

Yes, Right There
Local time
8:00 PM
Joined
Dec 4, 2008
Messages
416
Location
Halifax, NS
Hi all,
I've always been a Diafine cop-out kind of guy, but I find myself doing more and more wet printing vs digital, and I am unhappy with most of my negatives for that.

I have a gallon of D76 stock mixed up for use with 35mm Tri-X. My question is, do I need to invert the tank when I agitate? Does anyone use the center column spinner?
 
Yep, I'm a spinner. All my life. Never done anything else.

I think that the kind of tank one uses is influential in which process is used. Plastic tanks are more often spinners (because one can) while steel tank users are almost always inverters (because there is no provision for spinning.)

I'm sure there are some plastic tank inverters, but ...
 
Last edited:
I'm a plastic tank inverter! I use the standard Ilford method all the time.
That said, however you achieve it, the amount of agitation is an important aspect of the development process. Too much or too little and it affects the results. If you've found a method that works for you, be it gentle inversion, cocktail shaking or limp-wristed twiddling then stick with it. If you want to change, just be aware that you may also need to modify your development time to compensate for a greater or lesser amount of agitation.
 
I think you will get more even development if you use inversion properly. I say properly because if you invert too slowly you can get surge marks.
The spinner doesn't really mix up all the development byproducts with unused developer properly but I'm sure some will say they have no problems with it.
 
+1.

Steel reels and tanks, I invert. The plastic type with the spinner, I use the spinner. Consistency is always key.

The kind of agitation isn't as important as the consistency of it. Pick something that works and stick with it, so you'll know if it's working for you or not, and can repeat the process with little to no thought.

Though you generally want to agitate gently. The last thing you want is to create air bubbles or over-agitate. After your agitation (especially inversion), give the tank a rap or two on the counter or with your hand to dislodge bubbles.
 
I'm a beginner, and I have been agitating by gently swirling the tank with an off-center circular motion, then banging it on the bench. This seems to be working fine.

I am using a plastic tank, which I wouldn't know how to invert (how would I keep solution from coming out?). I do have a spinner (at least I think that's what it is), but it is clearly meant for a one-reel tank, and I am using a three-reel.

I also have a steel tank/reel but I can barely get the film on it with a practice roll in a lighted room, I would not be able to do it in the dark at this point. ;-(

Randy
 
Don't sweat the steel reels...keep practicing in the daylight. Close your eyes once you have a little feel for it and get used to that...then the darkroom will be a snap. Trust me, it'll come.
Paterson (plastic) tanks have a lid for those that want to invert without the spinner.
 
I guess I'm more of a hybrid agitator. I have a steel tank and reel, but have lost some frames due to not having the film loaded correctly. Therefore I stick with my Paterson 2 reel tank most of the time. I use the spinner for the first agitation(30 seconds) after pouring in the chemistry. Then I apply the soft plastic lid that allows me to do inversions. I do 5 inversions for 10 seconds every minute. I also rap the tank on the counter after the inversions.

All that being said, I couldn't tell you if the results are satisfactory or not. I know there's an image there, but I haven't developed a critical eye yet for looking at my negatives and knowing what I'm looking for.
 
Having known some obsessive people years back who literally spent a year photographing gray cards and checking results with a densitometer, and thinking out the theory, (spinning gives more agitation to the outside as it moves further in one revolution), it can be quite over thought and drawn out. The linear speed is the radius times the rotational rate, but more simply the horse on the outside of the track has a longer race.

Straight up and down should give more agitation to the center of the frame, in theory.

It is probably impossible in any normal tank system to get "perfect" agitation, but it seems, fortunately, extreme, or even noticeable, foul ups are uncommon, that said, inversion agitation with some variation is prudent, and though I have never personally seen problems with bubbles, I avoid slamming the tank on to the counter as I have seen some do, any bubbles that tenacious can hang around. I have seen cracked tanks.

With shorter development times and larger tanks, I do try to make the changeover between solutions more efficient, better to gravitate perhaps to more reasonable times.

I like a hardener in my film fix as well, and it seems you may have to add one if you want it these days.

You acquire personal techniques as you go along, there are particular film clips I like, and others I do not care for, I keep extra reels handy, in case one is giving me a hard time on a particular day, I take another from the stack, I see no advantage in stop bath for film, as I do not use fix to saturation, and I have a way of using my small finger to keep the film away from the reel during loading to avoid scratches, I may mist some water on my floor and walls in dry weather to knock down dust before it finds a wet emulsion, and a final rinse is in distilled water with a wipe from some Swedish sponges I found and stocked up on years ago-- YMMV.

I know in theory the steel tanks are "better", but I have seen any number of lost exposures from folks' film sticking to the next row and keeping it from processing, I like the Paterson system of plastic tanks.

Find something in your comfort zone and use it.

I used a lot of D76, then Rodinal or R09 for MF and APX, just seemed a good tonality, but Xtol seems to do just about everything D76 did and better. I had been known to mix up D76 late at night from formula when I was out, and in the early days actually replenished my developers, but went to 1:1 and toss the used. Chemistry is cheap relative to results and effort.

I don't know whether all of this is technique, or tics I have come to use, and yes, I write long posts. ;-)

Regards, John
 
Last edited:
I use a tank with double the compacity of whatever I'm developing - for example a 2 reel tank for 1 reel of film. When I overfilled a 1 reel tank and inverted, I didn't enough agitation. Having a bunch of extra room for the developer to move around in really helped consistency.
 
I have "spin me" tank only, I spin and pull stick up as much it is possible without lifting lid and put down - to enhance flow of liquids.

Everything is fine, but sometimes I get brighter squares on some frames (not all!) but I think this has been related to handling film in not light proof room.
 
Spinning causes proper replenishment on film edges and less than full replenishment in the center of the film. Result is light edges and normal center on prints.

Patterson instructions call for twist, spin, stick for first agitation ONLY. Inversion after.

Stainless is always inversion.

With any tank, even a juice jug, lift rod can be spun and raised and lowered reversing direction on way down.

You can also roll a two reel tank that only has one reel in the bottom. Jobo machine works on this principle.

If you are lucky enough to spin and never get the results I listed above, bless you. Keep it up. Sooner or later you will see what I mean.
 
I never found the center spin satisfying. I always seems to have the wet center post sliding or digging in to my fingers. I gave away that tank and have used a Paterson plastic reel tank since then without problems.
 
I use Patterson tanks and reels and use the spinner for the first 30 seconds only. After that I gently invert, usually 2-3 inversions in 10 seconds every minute.
 
Thanks for all the replies. I souped my first non-Diafine roll earlier and it seems to have come quite nicely 🙂
Tri-X 400 @400 ISO
10 min, 5 turns (1 turn on my Arista tank is about 1/3 of a revolution of the spinner) every 30 seconds.
 
I used the spinner for years without noticeable problems but now I invert. There are downsides to both methods:

1. Rotation means the outside of the spiral moves much faster than the inside, so the last frames on your film (assuming a Paterson reel) get more agitation. Whether this matters when it's only being agitated for 10 seconds and then allowed to stand for 50 seconds, I don't know. Also, the developer may keep swirling after you stop agitating.

2. Inversion will create lots of air bubbles. Generally replacing the tank on the bench with a good bang should dislodge them, but you never know. Also, some tank lids leak a little.
 
What about rotating less and mostly using spinner stick to move reels up and down? At least this way inside and outside of reels would get same amount of developer activity.
 
Just started developing with Paterson tank this week. Inverter. I've never seen a YouTube instruction videos that uses spinning oddly enough.
 
Back
Top Bottom