Does my Zorki 1 have a hot shoe?

[fub]

just recieved this Zorki 1 today. it is my first zorki 1. i noticed the cold shoe looked like a hot shoe, with a brass(?) contact in the center. There is also an additional screw (also brass?)on the cover of the rangefinder. after taking the cover off, i found this:




is this X sync at 1/30s?

 

[WoodallP]

just recieved this Zorki 1 today. it is my first zorki 1. i noticed the cold shoe looked like a hot shoe, with a brass(?) contact in the center. There is also an additional screw (also brass?)on the cover of the rangefinder. after taking the cover off, i found this:

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is this X sync at 1/30s?

Certainly unusual and not factory standard as far as I know (by chance I have a Zorki I open at the moment). I’d try a meter on the apparent contact and the case whilst firing the shutter to see what happens. If it is what you suspect, I would assume it would sync at 1/20th which is the slowest speed. However many Zorkis will have the springs wound up such that 1/20th is nearer 1/30th.

 

[Coldkennels]

That definitely looks like a crude DIY version of the way some companies installed flash into their cameras that used this type of shutter (you can see the way Leotax added it here: Leotax Flash Circuits).

Honestly, I'd just put the top back on and put a SMALL AND LOW POWERED old-school flash on it and see what happens. Absolute worst-case scenario is that you get a small shock from the camera or that you fry the flash unit. You're not going to damage the camera from trying it out.

I'd be very curious to know how accurate the synchronisation was considering how rudimentary that contact is. You can test that by firing the flash into the lens mount with a white business card inserted where the film should be; if the synchronisation is accurate, you should see a "ghost image" of the entire frame after the flash has fired. If you can only see part of the frame, the synchronisation is no good.

 

[fub]

Certainly unusual and not factory standard as far as I know (by chance I have a Zorki I open at the moment). I’d try a meter on the apparent contact and the case whilst firing the shutter to see what happens. If it is what you suspect, I would assume it would sync at 1/20th which is the slowest speed. However many Zorkis will have the springs wound up such that 1/20th is nearer 1/30th.

is metering how i find of if it is X or M flash? i think i'll put a little flash on there and see if it flashes once it is back together (have to patch the curtains a bit), but that will not tell me if it is x or m unless i try it with film and check the pictures, correct? does it even matter if it is x or m?

@Coldkennels

thanks, i'll try that once its back together! exactly the easy solution i was looking for. i hope this construction work. it would be very cool to have a flash on the Zorki

 

[Coldkennels]

is metering how i find of if it is X or M flash? [...] does it even matter if it is x or m?

Looking at those contacts, I doubt it'll be M-class. X is instantaneous - it trips the moment the shutter fires - but M needs to trigger slightly earlier to give the bulb a moment to get up to full brightness.

The way that shutter works is the semi-circular bar is pushed outwards as soon as the first curtain moves, and they've positioned a contact to be hit by it when that happens. That would - providing it's placed correctly - give you an X-class synchronisation on the slowest available shutter speed (so 1/20, for a Zorki).

As for your last question: you can't use electronic flash with M sync. M sync would fire it too early, and as electronic flash is just a quick pulse of light, there'd be no light left once the shutter started moving. M sync is for flashbulbs only.

 

[fub]

The way that shutter works is the semi-circular bar is pushed outwards as soon as the first curtain moves, and they've positioned a contact to be hit by it when that happens. That would - providing it's placed correctly - give you an X-class synchronisation on the slowest available shutter speed (so 1/20, for a Zorki).

wow, i just understood how the a camera flash works. basicly with pressing the shutter a circuit is being closed (ground and positive are being connected) which triggers the flash, right? hopefully it will work.
i'll test out tomorrow or the day after when i am done with the curtains. i'll keep you updated if this in deed very simple construction works.

 

[Coldkennels]

Yeah, exactly that - you're completing a circuit at a specific moment to either fire the electronic flash or ignite a flashbulb.

The one thing to bear in mind is that if something is wired incorrectly, the current can run through the camera body itself and give you a pretty nasty shock. I had a Kiev 4AM years back with that problem - every time I connected a charged flash to the hotshoe, it immediately shorted out and shocked me. That's why I said you really want to test this with a small low-powered flash; even small flashes will have surprisingly large capacitors, but if the trigger voltage is low, it won't do you any harm. Some of the flashes listed here have a trigger voltage in excess of mains voltage, and while the current is the real issue, I still don't want 270V+ going into my hands if I can help it.

 

[fub]

Yeah, exactly that - you're completing a circuit at a specific moment to either fire the electronic flash or ignite a flashbulb.

The one thing to bear in mind is that if something is wired incorrectly, the current can run through the camera body itself and give you a pretty nasty shock. I had a Kiev 4AM years back with that problem - every time I connected a charged flash to the hotshoe, it immediately shorted out and shocked me. That's why I said you really want to test this with a small low-powered flash; even small flashes will have surprisingly large capacitors, but if the trigger voltage is low, it won't do you any harm. Some of the flashes listed here have a trigger voltage in excess of mains voltage, and while the current is the real issue, I still don't want 270V+ going into my hands if I can help it.

there is this other screw that stick out from the cover of the viewfinder and makes a connection to the circular base around the flash thing. you can see the scratches for contact in the first picture i posted. why is that screw there? it is grounding something to the body, isn't it? is that not giving current to the body anyways?

 

[Coldkennels]

Hm, very odd. Where is it on the cover? Can you post a photo of the Zorki reassembled, for reference?

 

[JeffS7444]

Very possible, as a modification. In All You Need to Know About Design and Repair of Russian Cameras, Isaak Maizenberg provides details of how flash synchronization can be added to cameras which weren't so equipped from the factory, and it's not too hard to imagine someone going a step further and devising a hot shoe.

 

[fub]

Hm, very odd. Where is it on the cover? Can you post a photo of the Zorki reassembled, for reference?

here is one from the seller. ignore the green splashes everywhere 😉
it is to the right of the viewfinder. in the second picture you can see the hot shoe contact assembled.
this camera was insanely dirty. never seen so much of that green stuff on a camera.

 

[Coldkennels]

here is one from the seller. ignore the green splashes everywhere 😉
it is to the right of the viewfinder. in the second picture you can see the hot shoe contact assembled.

Okay, I think I see what's going on - my guess is whoever did this needed more definite continuity between the accessory shoe support and the top plate, so they've used that screw to bridge the gap. I'm surprised it was needed, but I can only assume that's what's happening there.

I'd probably test the flash with and without that screw in place, just to see what happens. I'd also want to probe around with the multimeter a bit with and without the viewfinder cover on to see exactly what was going on!

this camera was insanely dirty. never seen so much of that green stuff on a camera.

Sadly, this is fairly common for any camera that's been kept in those leather cases for a long time. My Leica III was in a similar state when I bought it. Sadly, on that, the verdigris had eaten into the chrome a bit on the back. It cleaned up relatively well, but the chrome has noticeably thinned.

 

[fub]

Okay, I think I see what's going on - my guess is whoever did this needed more definite continuity between the accessory shoe support and the top plate, so they've used that screw to bridge the gap. I'm surprised it was needed, but I can only assume that's what's happening there.

I'd probably test the flash with and without that screw in place, just to see what happens. I'd also want to probe around with the multimeter a bit with and without the viewfinder cover on to see exactly what was going on!



Sadly, this is fairly common for any camera that's been kept in those leather cases for a long time. My Leica III was in a similar state when I bought it. Sadly, on that, the verdigris had eaten into the chrome a bit on the back. It cleaned up relatively well, but the chrome has noticeably thinned.

multimeter should be set for AC or DC?

good thing about it being in its case for so long is that the lens is in great condition (after cleaning)

 

[Coldkennels]

multimeter should be set for AC or DC?

Neither - there should be a continuity setting that just beeps when there's a complete circuit. That's very handy for understanding how these things are set up - just probe away and track what beeps!

 

[fub]

Neither - there should be a continuity setting that just beeps when there's a complete circuit. That's very handy for understanding how these things are set up - just probe away and track what beeps!

it is done! everything is put back together and the hot shoe does seem to work fine. actually fires more reliable than my Zorki S

i will shoot a small test roll and see if they sync. could not find my caliper so shooting a few frames is the only way to check the flange i can do right now.
wish me luck 🙂

 

[fub]

Neither - there should be a continuity setting that just beeps when there's a complete circuit. That's very handy for understanding how these things are set up - just probe away and track what beeps!

testroll is developed and negative look sharp. i think i got lucky there with the flange.
however the flash test frames are mostly half frames. the very first shot i took with the flash looks good and after that it is only half frames. might be because the camera was already maflunctioning (again) at that point. B would not stay open and i think all speeds were the same or something like that. slight preassure increase on the spring that pushes the lever for the second curtain, combined with really cranking the camera to the maximum seems to have fixed that. so not all hope is lost on that flash, i'll just try again.

i noticed it only flashes after the camera is wound, and if you carefully press down the release button, you can get it to flash without the camera shutter firing. on my Zorki S the flash works even it the shutter is not tensioned by just pressing the shutter release. i did not notice that much of a gab between pressing the release, flash firing and shutter opening on the Zorki S. Wonky construction confirmed, but i kind of like it.

 

[Coldkennels]

Yeah, without the shutter running correctly, any flash synchronisation doesn't stand a chance at being accurate!

Apparently some of the aftermarket flash mods installed in screwmount Leicas can cause issues with the shutter's accuracy. Luckily, I don't think what you've got here will get in the way enough for that to be the case. My only concern is that I suspect there's a lot of movement on the contact - it could be that you had one good shot and then a lot of badly synchronised ones because the contact was pushed too far back on the first firing and didn't return to its starting position, meaning the circuit was closed fractionally later on subsequent shots. No way to know for sure until you're certain the shutter is 100% accurate every time, of course.

 

[fub]

Yeah, without the shutter running correctly, any flash synchronisation doesn't stand a chance at being accurate!

Apparently some of the aftermarket flash mods installed in screwmount Leicas can cause issues with the shutter's accuracy. Luckily, I don't think what you've got here will get in the way enough for that to be the case. My only concern is that I suspect there's a lot of movement on the contact - it could be that you had one good shot and then a lot of badly synchronised ones because the contact was pushed too far back on the first firing and didn't return to its starting position, meaning the circuit was closed fractionally later on subsequent shots. No way to know for sure until you're certain the shutter is 100% accurate every time, of course.

i think the shutter issue is that the lever of the second curtain sometimes does not get fully into its position, so that the retainer arm does not hold it open. It certainly works if you fully wind the mechanism. No need for excessive force when winding, but one needs to be much more aware of fully winding. Much more than on the Zorki S, 4 and Fed-2 i have.
The flash connection goes to that retainer arm and pushes it towards the shutter mechanism. Do you mean that contact when talking about it being pushed too far back? Because i kind of suspect that contact to push the lever too far inwards, causing the early release of the seconds curtain.

I'll just keep doing the occasional flash on the roll that is inside the camera now. We shall see in a few days how things went. Thanks for your help!