Don’t Go into Debt For Your Photography

[KM-25]

And? I don't think anyone denies that the D700 is a perfectly good camera. But next to a digital Leica pretty much any DSLR is big, fat and ugly (the Nikon Df isn't too bad). There's nothing "below the belt" in pointing that out.

Pointing it out an having an opinion are not exactly the same thing. I am bailing on this now, my wife and I are going to have brunch with friends and talk art and my wife's line of work, medical industry innovation. They are a sweet couple, did get into "smart" business debt while in college to start a business in California in agriculture. Their net worth.....2.8 billion.

 

[airfrogusmc]

If my accountant recommended leasing equipment I'd fire him. Leasing is just another word for financing. So what if you only pay a dollar for your equipment at the end of the lease. At the end of any finance period you own the equipment. Finance or lease there's interest on that you're paying.

A partner in one of my business ventures is married to a CPA that owns a large accounting firm. She recommends leasing everything for the business. She always argues you can write off the lease amount. Why pay the bank $4000 for a $750 savings is my thought? Not very smart economics IMO. Money spent on interest is money lost no matter who it goes to. That interest paid would better serve me if I spent it on a new piece of equipment not lining the pocket of my banker. I would never take her advice or let her touch my books.

Roger I know plenty of folks that made a lot of money that came from nothing. The above friends wife was the daughter of a very poor West Virginia farmer. I personally never received any inheritance, trust money or financial assistance from anyone. My parents were quite poor when I was young and couldn't even afford a car. Fortunately my dad had vision and saw the need to get an education and gave us a better life but we were never wealthy. What I have I did totally by myself. I took risk and was rewarded. I have a talent in photography and a good business sense. I don't throw money away and I save. There's nothing other than essentials that I can't wait on so I can pay cash.

My partner in one of my ventures is a self made millionaire. He came from an average income Alabama family. He never received any sizable inheritance or trust money. He too made his through his writing talent and keen business sense. He took the risk and opened an ad agency and motion picture production house and made a load of money. He was single until he was in his 60's and lived in a two room cabin for many years. Now he has a nice home on a lake and a large cabin in the mountains.

Plenty of folks made their money totally on their own.

The only debt in my business I ever took on was in the mid 80's when I expanded my studio and added broadcast video equipment and produced industrial videos and commercials. In this case I paid the debt off in half the loan period.

If I remember correctly the lease payments were 100% tax deductible and worked out better financially than if we would have taken it all at once or depreciated it. It was a long time ago. I could have paid cash for it but it worked out better at the time to lease it.

 

[jszokoli]

If I remember correctly the lease payments were 100% tax deductible and worked out better financially than if we would have taken it all at once or depreciated it. It was a long time ago. I could have paid cash for it but it worked out better at the time to lease it.

It's not just that its a simple expense, you also don't have to depreciate it as an asset. When everyone does something you can be sure they are likely not idiots.

Tax laws shapes what makes sense debt is not always bad...

Joe

 

[Ibramr]

And let me guess, the first step to taking photography seriously involves buying some specific camera? 😛

This question is slightly off-topic, but interesting nevertheless. And the answer is, "maybe yes". A camera that a person likes will likely be more used, and with increased practice, more skills can be acquired. Further some cameras are indeed unique for specific use. An excellent example from my experience is the Fuji GA645Zi--a camera I wish if I had it much earlier in a period of extensive international travel. Its amazing lens/flash combination were extremely helpful in both street and landscape photography. Of course, your milage might differ. Enjoy in good health.

 

[DrMcCoy]

Why are people still paying attention to Eric Kim?

 

[tunalegs]

This question is slightly off-topic, but interesting nevertheless. And the answer is, "maybe yes". A camera that a person likes will likely be more used, and with increased practice, more skills can be acquired. Further some cameras are indeed unique for specific use. An excellent example from my experience is the Fuji GA645Zi--a camera I wish if I had it much earlier in a period of extensive international travel. Its amazing lens/flash combination were extremely helpful in both street and landscape photography. Of course, your milage might differ. Enjoy in good health.

I won't argue against that notion. But again it's a rather beside the point of the article. 99.9% of people don't need a $7000 camera to take good photos. Indeed the camera, arguably has very little to do with it in most cases for most people. It's usually the people who've realized this too late that get the angriest when the subject comes up too.

The problem is writers who urge people without the money that they must have such cameras, or they'll never learn/experience/enjoy "real" photography. I still roll my eyes when I think about the guy who advocated college students starve for a month to afford a Leica, because using one will make them better photographers.

 

[Chriscrawfordphoto]

I won't argue against that notion. But again it's a rather beside the point of the article. 99.9% of people don't need a $7000 camera to take good photos. Indeed the camera, arguably has very little to do with it in most cases for most people. It's usually the people who've realized this too late that get the angriest when the subject comes up too.

The problem is writers who urge people without the money that they must have such cameras, or they'll never learn/experience/enjoy "real" photography. I still roll my eyes when I think about the guy who advocated college students starve for a month to afford a Leica, because using one will make them better photographers.

I agree 100%. I've never owned such an expensive camera, and never will. Despite that, I have sold my work around the world, exhibited, been published, etc.

The guy who made you roll your eyes reminds me of an old man that used to come into the place I worked when I was in college. I was a photo lab technician at a Meijer store in Fort Wayne. Meijer is a big-box supercenter type store. They sell everything from groceries to clothes to lawnmowers. They also had one-hour photo labs in the stores.

This customer was a medical doctor in his 60s who got all of his film developed at the Meijer One Hour Photo lab where I worked. He constantly told me that I would never make anything of myself as a photographer until I got a Leica.

That was not going to happen. I was making $7 an hour. I had already began exhibiting my work and selling photos, but wasn't making enough to buy expensive gear. I shot with a Mamiya 645 and an Olympus OM-4T. Both great cameras that made good, sharp photos.

I finally got tired of hearing this old fool ****ting on me because I was poor, and I told him what I thought of him. The manager heard me, and he actually told me that he would have told the guy to f-off far earlier than I did!

The ironic thing is that the old doctor did most of his work with a Contax G2, the Japanese-made interchangeable lens AF camera. He owned a couple of Leicas, but rarely used them.

 

[fireblade]

Those that have and those who don't, y'all gonna die one day, put in a hole with your elbows touching timber, well those that have may have their elbows touching something more exotic....anyhows, you will all become members of one club.....those that HAD. 😀 ......including Eric Kim 🙂

 

[giganova]

How are people supposed to buy a house cash unless they have inherited money and or saved up for decades and let their families grow up in a rented apartment, basically making your landlord rich and throwing the money for rent out of the window? If a bank gives you great terms & conditions, it makes a lot of sense to take out a mortgage.

I bought my house at the bottom of the real estate crises at an amazing price and at very low interest rate. 8 years later and my house is now worth twice as much. Of course I took a loan to finance it because young people typically don't have hundreds of thousands of $$ laying around. But I'm building up a lot of equity, can easily afford the mortgage and -- drumroll -- I have a much higher quality of living. Money well spent! 😀

Statements such as "I only buy cash" serves the sole purpose to make yourself feel superior.

 

[michaelwj]

How are people supposed to buy a house cash unless they have inherited money and or saved up for decades and let their families grow up in a rented apartment, basically making your landlord rich and throwing the money for rent out of the window? If a bank gives you great terms & conditions, it makes a lot of sense to take out a mortgage.

I bought my house at the bottom of the real estate crises at an amazing price and at very low interest rate. 8 years later and my house is now worth twice as much. Of course I took a loan to finance it because young people typically don't have hundreds of thousands of $$ laying around. But I'm building up a lot of equity, can easily afford the mortgage and -- drumroll -- I have a much higher quality of living. Money well spent! 😀

Statements such as "I only buy cash" serves the sole purpose to make yourself feel superior.

Agreed.

We bought our first house only with the help from my parents. There is no way we could have saved $200k for a deposit paying rent. Three years later we moved interstate, sold the house and bought a new one. After all our repayments we made over $100k on the sale. Our repayments are now about equal to rent, but we have our own house - somewhere secure and stable without a landlord over us.

If we did not have the help from my parents we could not have bought a house and would be renting, or living a long way out of town with our days spent commuting. I am very lucky, but still in a lot of debt, only the home loan though. No credit cards, no other loans. We make sure we are always ahead on our home loan just in case.

Some things are worth debt, others not so much, but it is unfeasible for everyone to pay cash upfront for everything.

But, speaking of credit cards, my wife and I went to a party at a local (fancy) bar (we don't go out to bars typically unless there is live music - never fancy ones). As I used to do when I was in my 20's l I took cash, about the amount I thought was reasonable. I was the only person paying cash. Everyone else in the bar was 'tapping' a credit card. I couldn't believe it, who knows how much they were spending - thry didn't even pay attention to the bar staff, just tap. Were they buying drinks on credit? Is this common anywhere else? I wouldn't trust myself to use a credit card responsibly after a few drinks.

 

[Chriscrawfordphoto]

But, speaking of credit cards, my wife and I went to a party at a local (fancy) bar (we don't go out to bars typically unless there is live music - never fancy ones). As I used to do when I was in my 20's l I took cash, about the amount I thought was reasonable. I was the only person paying cash. Everyone else in the bar was 'tapping' a credit card. I couldn't believe it, who knows how much they were spending - thry didn't even pay attention to the bar staff, just tap. Were they buying drinks on credit? Is this common anywhere else? I wouldn't trust myself to use a credit card responsibly after a few drinks.

They were probably using debit cards. I don't have a credit card, but I have a Visa debit card that my bank gave me. I use it like a credit card in stores, but the money comes out of my checking account. Its convenient, no cash to carry. I save my receipts and balance my checkbook when I get home.

 

[FrozenInTime]

I was the only person paying cash. Everyone else in the bar was 'tapping' a credit card. I couldn't believe it, who knows how much they were spending - thry didn't even pay attention to the bar staff, just tap. Were they buying drinks on credit? Is this common anywhere else? I wouldn't trust myself to use a credit card responsibly after a few drinks.

Very common in California these days, but I don't know how long it will last;
phone payments are the next wave ApplePay, Google Wallet , WeChat Wallet in China etc. are replacing cash and plastic ( be it debit or credit ).

( reminds me of a 1980s Azimov short story of an unusual punishment:
"I am incapable of looking at a computer without hurting my eyes, or touching one without blistering my fingers. I can't even handle my cash card or even think of using it without nausea." http://www.edn.com/electronics-news/4319939/A-perfect-fit )

 

[Keith]

It's really not just photography that's the issue ... it's human behaviour. If you're a golfer it will be the putter that can change your game and if you're a cyclist it will be that carbon framed bike that you know you really need ... and so it goes on.

Credit schmedit ... that's not the issue. The first world suffers from an insatiable need for retail therapy to fix it's problems and for me that's the real picture here!

 

[x-ray]

If I remember correctly the lease payments were 100% tax deductible and worked out better financially than if we would have taken it all at once or depreciated it. It was a long time ago. I could have paid cash for it but it worked out better at the time to lease it.

No problem takng tax deductions. I take plenty of them every year. Yes your interest is 100% deductible as is your purchase but you never save as much as you pay out. Say for example paying $1000 in interest yields a $ savings on your taxes of $250. You're paying out $750 more than you save. That just doesn't work out the way I see it. If I'd paid cash is still get the deduction even if it's depreciated over a few years and you still have that $1000 that would have been paid in interest in your pocket. Ok $750 net in your pocket.

 

[x-ray]

Agreed.

We bought our first house only with the help from my parents. There is no way we could have saved $200k for a deposit paying rent. Three years later we moved interstate, sold the house and bought a new one. After all our repayments we made over $100k on the sale. Our repayments are now about equal to rent, but we have our own house - somewhere secure and stable without a landlord over us.

If we did not have the help from my parents we could not have bought a house and would be renting, or living a long way out of town with our days spent commuting. I am very lucky, but still in a lot of debt, only the home loan though. No credit cards, no other loans. We make sure we are always ahead on our home loan just in case.

Some things are worth debt, others not so much, but it is unfeasible for everyone to pay cash upfront for everything.

But, speaking of credit cards, my wife and I went to a party at a local (fancy) bar (we don't go out to bars typically unless there is live music - never fancy ones). As I used to do when I was in my 20's l I took cash, about the amount I thought was reasonable. I was the only person paying cash. Everyone else in the bar was 'tapping' a credit card. I couldn't believe it, who knows how much they were spending - thry didn't even pay attention to the bar staff, just tap. Were they buying drinks on credit? Is this common anywhere else? I wouldn't trust myself to use a credit card responsibly after a few drinks.

That's great that your parents gave you a hand. I didn't have that luxury and due to family issues wouldn't have asked even if they would have loaned or given me money. I agree I there's one thing worth going in debt for, within reason, is a house.

When my wife and I go out I see the same thing. The thing that surprises me is people buying on credit at the grocery store. I understand some people buy on a card they get points on and pay it off monthly but there are plenty that carry a balance.

 

[MikeMGB]

Agreed.

We bought our first house only with the help from my parents. There is no way we could have saved $200k for a deposit paying rent. Three years later we moved interstate, sold the house and bought a new one. After all our repayments we made over $100k on the sale. Our repayments are now about equal to rent, but we have our own house - somewhere secure and stable without a landlord over us.

If we did not have the help from my parents we could not have bought a house and would be renting, or living a long way out of town with our days spent commuting. I am very lucky, but still in a lot of debt, only the home loan though. No credit cards, no other loans. We make sure we are always ahead on our home loan just in case.

Some things are worth debt, others not so much, but it is unfeasible for everyone to pay cash upfront for everything.

But, speaking of credit cards, my wife and I went to a party at a local (fancy) bar (we don't go out to bars typically unless there is live music - never fancy ones). As I used to do when I was in my 20's l I took cash, about the amount I thought was reasonable. I was the only person paying cash. Everyone else in the bar was 'tapping' a credit card. I couldn't believe it, who knows how much they were spending - thry didn't even pay attention to the bar staff, just tap. Were they buying drinks on credit? Is this common anywhere else? I wouldn't trust myself to use a credit card responsibly after a few drinks.

I would have been one of these people, I use a credit card exclusively, but I use it as a debit card, I pay the balance in full every month and never pay interest. I use it because I get travel miles on it, every two years I can purchase a round trip plane ticket from the USA to the UK using the miles. I use credit, but I use it wisely.

 

[Sarcophilus Harrisii]

Quite. But it's quite hard to convince some of this.

As for "a camera is just a camera", those who say it should be forced to work with a Box Brownie. Unless of course they like Holgas, in which case something like a Contaflex Super BC might be more appropriate.

The meaning of "a camera is just a camera" varies, but given that some people appear to be able to equate a big, fat Nikon D700 with a Leica, it must have some pretty strange meanings.

Cheers,

R

Now Roger that is a little unfair. A Super BC is a lot more capable than a Holga and has a lens a darned sight better than any Holga has ever had.

I know you've had your issues with the magazine backs, but once again, they do work OK if you understand how to use them (granted, the instructions do help and yes, I have a copy of those, and you are due to get back to me about those and a book or two mate). 😉 But they're not the only device which requires some knowledge and a sequence of steps in a particular order, to make something approaching a decent photograph with them.

Over the last few days I have been out photographing with the Linhof Super Technika kit I acquired recently. It's gorgeous, and I'm loving it. But there really are far more things you can do wrong with it than with a Contaflex, (magazine back or not). From loading it properly (an old Rollex 6x9 knob wind back was used in my case); having the multifocus finder set to the correct focal length of your lens, and correct distance for framing, and in the right orientation (portrait or landscape), and using the right frame lines for 6x9, 4x5 or whatever you are shooting; setting the lens to the correct infinity stop for the focal length; remembering to put the tracks back onto the right detent, after you've pulled out the lens standard; ensuring that, if you want to take a portrait orientated image, that the rotating back actually is set to portrait; remembering to cock the shutter prior to depressing the release; removing the dark slide before making the shot; and not forgetting to wind on immediately after, lest you double expose. For a Linhof novice I've been doing moderately well, but I still made at least two of these mistakes over the last week!

My point is that you'd be able to pick up my Linhof and operate it faultlessly, because you've had so much experience with them. Well, I could take your Super BC, load its fiddly magazine back correctly in a minute (or two, depending on whether I'm having a good day, or not) and then start shooting with it unfettered. It's arguably an easier piece of equipment to use than a Linhof, but each, in their own ways, are capable of producing sharp, well exposed images. Familiarity counts for a lot.
Cheers,
Brett

 

[Sarcophilus Harrisii]

I can't help feeling that this thread has some resemblance to the comments section of many Petapixel articles and I don't think that's a good thing. Rarely I find something at the site that's a genuinely interesting topic for further investigation. Many articles have so much to say without voicing anything of value. I think they're intended to get people talking (and arguing!) without necessarily imparting much in the way of genuine knowledge. There are a lot of things I really value about RFF, perhaps most that I have learnt so much about photography from its members. I can't say I've learnt a great deal of value from Petapixel, except perhaps to spend less time arguing with idiots on the internet (in which, with regard to photographic topics, I believe the site has few peers). Of course your mileage may vary; I tend to prefer content with a strong factual basis, Petapixel is really an opinion site and maybe you get more out of that. Perhaps some of my suspicions derive from my perception that much of the content is opinion dressed up as fact.
Cheers,
Brett

 

[Roger Hicks]

And let me guess, the first step to taking photography seriously involves buying some specific camera? 😛

No, it involves using the right camera for the job. Most pictures are easier to take (and therefore come out better) when you use the right camera. The "right camera" is comparatively rarely a Leica, but it can be. The percentage of pictures that I take with Leicas has varied over the last 40+ years from 20% or less to 80% or more, but I could/would not take the same pictures with my Nikon Df as with my M9.

If there were no differences between cameras, why would some be very much more popular with professionals than others?

Cheers,

R.

 

[Roger Hicks]

Now Roger that is a little unfair. A Super BC is a lot more capable than a Holga and has a lens a darned sight better than any Holga has ever had. . . .

Dear Brett,

Sure. That was exactly my point. People who say "all cameras are the same" should be introduced to the simple fact that they aren't. I chose the Super BC purely as a camera to perplex a Holga user.

Cheers,

R.