Don’t Go into Debt For Your Photography

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Roger Hicks said:
No, it involves using the right camera for the job. Most pictures are easier to take (and therefore come out better) when you use the right camera. The "right camera" is comparatively rarely a Leica, but it can be. The percentage of pictures that I take with Leicas has varied over the last 40+ years from 20% or less to 80% or more, but I could/would not take the same pictures with my Nikon Df as with my M9.

If there were no differences between cameras, why would some be very much more popular with professionals than others?

Cheers,

R.
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I'll quote myself from the previous page, as my opinions have not changed on the matter since that post.

tunalegs said:
I won't argue against that notion. But again it's a rather beside the point of the article. 99.9% of people don't need a $7000 camera to take good photos. Indeed the camera, arguably has very little to do with it in most cases for most people. It's usually the people who've realized this too late that get the angriest when the subject comes up too.

The problem is writers who urge people without the money that they must have such cameras, or they'll never learn/experience/enjoy "real" photography. I still roll my eyes when I think about the guy who advocated college students starve for a month to afford a Leica, because using one will make them better photographers.
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And I know of at least a few rare people who can pull more good photos out of a single roll through a Holga, than most can pull from several rolls through a Leica, or Alpa, or Linhof. I'll add that I never stated all cameras are the same, rather that a camera is just a camera. Out of everything that goes into making a good photograph, it is only a minor part of the big picture (no pun intended).
 
tunalegs said:
I'm not falling for most of these red herrings, . . . .
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Fine. There are photographers who can get more pictures off a single roll through a Holga than someone else might get from a Leica. This is because FOR THEM and FOR THOSE PICTURES the Holga is the right camera. This doesn't make it the right camera for everyone and for every picture.

Cheers,

R.
 
Roger Hicks said:
Fine. There are photographers who can get more pictures off a single roll through a Holga than someone else might get from a Leica. This is because FOR THEM and FOR THOSE PICTURES the Holga is the right camera. This doesn't make it the right camera for everyone and for every picture.

Cheers,

R.
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Which again is beside the point of the article. Obviously different cameras have different qualities. But for most people taking most pictures, a $7000 camera isn't going to improve their results. It's not going to make them a better photographer. Nobody should be lead to believe that it would do so, let alone some poor student who should be putting their money towards things that actually will make their life better. Nobody is saying that nobody should buy expensive cameras. Just that most people would get more for their money spending it elsewhere. It's a pretty honest idea.
 
I'm a relatively recent Economics research graduate and all the things I've seen tumbling down around me has made me quite wary about debt in general, especially if I see someone taking a loan that he can't afford.

(1) Somewhat related, especially those who use/want to use credit cards, I'd highly recommend this excellent programme from PBS (2004) http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/credit/

- In it there is a HLS professor, where she mentions that even she didn't fully understand credit card small prints!
- One speaker mentions that (I'm paraphrasing) "Do not buy something simply because you want it using your credit card. Buy something if you need with it." In other words, don't commit to something if you can't pay for it.
This programme was quite helpful in the sense that's when I started making money whilst being a full time student.

(2) Around 2005-06, when I just started my MSc course, I received a letter from NatWest bank, offering various benefit of house mortgage. Now this is amazing on so many levels:
- I was an international student in the UK at that time
- my monthly income at that time was about 1200 pounds (part-time job at NHS and from parents)
- My credit limit at the time was 800 pounds/month. I was a full-time student! A student shouldn't be given that level of credit. They sent me those house buying offers from NatWest multiple times until 2007... Crazy lot

I didn't take any loan from any bank because I don't need any. I pay my credit card and other bills every month by direct debit. So no interest payments all these years. I bet they hate me. 😀
 
michaelwj said:
... I was the only person paying cash. Everyone else in the bar was 'tapping' a credit card. I couldn't believe it, who knows how much they were spending - thry didn't even pay attention to the bar staff, just tap. Were they buying drinks on credit? Is this common anywhere else? I wouldn't trust myself to use a credit card responsibly after a few drinks.
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Hi,

They all seem to do it for the silliest things, like a coffee or newspaper or anything else costing pennies. How they keep a track of the debt is beyond me. And are they paying it all off each month? I wonder...

Regards, David
 
Roger Hicks said:
People who say "all cameras are the same" should be introduced to the simple fact that they aren't. I chose the Super BC purely as a camera to perplex a Holga user.
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Here we go again. The topic of that thread is about whether it's worth getting into debt and financial troubles to buy something the marketing hype try to force people to buy even if they don't need and can't afford it (which is what the marketing rules are designed for). Sorry to be forced myself to get back to this but your repetitive borderline comparisons (your above example of the Box Brownie for instance) are really becoming boring.

What if you were advised to participate to this forum using a fountain pen and some sheets of paper ? 🙄

Nobody in that thread wrote that an Holga was as good as a Leica...

To the young (or not so young) amateur photographer wanting to achieve good results and have some excellent stuff at hand, the advice of getting one of the most excellent and highly reliable digital camera ever made (the article quoted by the OP is about digital stuff) with a couple of stellar primes for less than $1,000 cash on the second hand market instead of getting in debt to endlessly pay the upfront and the interest for a $6,500 camera kit which won't bring anything really better, was it for the files quality or for the photographic style and results, has nothing to do with any personal and biased thoughts about the form factor of some affordable, reliable and technically excellent gear, being this or that.

There are no obtrusive or unobtrusive cameras.

Yet there are, for sure, obtrusive or unobtrusive photographers.

Roger Hicks said:
(...) I could/would not take the same pictures with my Nikon Df as with my M9.
Click to expand...

Dozens of the greatest photographers ever, including those who are dead today alas and now belong to the history of photography, and who alternatively and brilliantly used rangefinders and SLRs for our greatest joy, would probably just faintly smile in front of such a sentence. The chemistry has fizzled out.
 
tunalegs said:
Which again is beside the point of the article. Obviously different cameras have different qualities. But for most people taking most pictures, a $7000 camera isn't going to improve their results. It's not going to make them a better photographer. Nobody should be lead to believe that it would do so, let alone some poor student who should be putting their money towards things that actually will make their life better. Nobody is saying that nobody should buy expensive cameras. Just that most people would get more for their money spending it elsewhere. It's a pretty honest idea.
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No. The PRICE is beside the point. DSLRS are pretty interchangeable. So would digital rangefinder cameras be, if there were other marques; but there aren't. So if you want/need a Leica, that's what it costs.

Whether you can afford it or not is another matter (which was the point of the original article).

My sole objection is to the idea that you can say someone would be "better off with" an apple (DSLR) rather than an orange (Leica).

Cheers,

R.
 
Seems to be a lot of one size fits all talk on this subject. It's just not that simple. It's easy not to go into debt if you have a great job. Some aren't that lucky.

By the way, I owned a Leica in college. My first Leica cost me $800 (1992). It was a cosmetically ugly, but mechanically perfect M4-2 ($400) with a V3 50mm Summicron ($400). I didn't need to go into debt... I just needed to work a part-time job.
 
David Hughes said:
Hi,

They all seem to do it for the silliest things, like a coffee or newspaper or anything else costing pennies. How they keep a track of the debt is beyond me. And are they paying it all off each month? I wonder...

Regards, David
Click to expand...

I don't think these people are going into debt to buy these small items. Some people just don't carry any cash at all with them anymore. It's not debt if you pay it off before the interest sets in. I buy online with a credit card all of the time... it's hard to buy online with cash. I just pay off the card before the bill evens comes. I also run a tab on a card at a bar because it is easier to pay at the end. This is simple math... if I bought 7 beers at $7 each... it's not hard to figure out how much money should be on my card.
 
Keith said:
It's really not just photography that's the issue ... it's human behaviour. If you're a golfer it will be the putter that can change your game and if you're a cyclist it will be that carbon framed bike that you know you really need ... and so it goes on.

Credit schmedit ... that's not the issue. The first world suffers from an insatiable need for retail therapy to fix it's problems and for me that's the real picture here!
Click to expand...

Hey, I play golf with one of those guys, always with the latest $600-$900 putter...

You should see his face when the old guy in our group nails every putt with his stolen-from-a-putt-putt-range $5 putter LOL...

And yes, often he buys another 'new and better' one within a few weeks...

Do any of us know a photographer changing systems (or lenses) in the same style?

🙂 😱
 
jsrockit said:
I don't think these people are going into debt to buy these small items. Some people just don't carry any cash at all with them anymore. It's not debt if you pay it off before the interest sets in. I buy online with a credit card all of the time... it's hard to buy online with cash. I just pay off the card before the bill evens comes. I also run a tab on a card at a bar because it is easier to pay at the end. This is simple math... if I bought 7 beers at $7 each... it's not hard to figure out how much money should be on my card.
Click to expand...

I lose track, especially after 7 beers!

This is getting pretty off topic, but I know a lot of people who put everything on their card and then pay it off at the end of the month, paying no interest. They say it is not costing them anything and they are not in debt, but in reality they are always operating one month behind, spending next months pay. If they lost their job they would not be able to pay the card off, and the vicious cycle would begin. They typically have no savings either.

Each to their own and all, but I use cash. I know how much I have left, it's in my pocket. I also find I'm less likely to spend physical cash on things I don't need compared to imaginary plastic money.

And I think you'd be surprised - I'd bet a lot of people go backwards on credit by only a few dollars a week, and before they know it they're $100 behind, then $200, then the interest kicks in and they've gone into debt for not watching the small things.

Edit: I used to buy online with a credit card, but I got rid of it as soon as I could get a debit card that works like a credit card - saves me doing a few transfers each time I buy something online.
 
michaelwj said:
I lose track, especially after 7 beers!

This is getting pretty off topic, but I know a lot of people who put everything on their card and then pay it off at the end of the month, paying no interest. They say it is not costing them anything and they are not in debt, but in reality they are always operating one month behind, spending next months pay. If they lost their job they would not be able to pay the card off, and the vicious cycle would begin. They typically have no savings either.

Each to their own and all, but I use cash. I know how much I have left, it's in my pocket. I also find I'm less likely to spend physical cash on things I don't need compared to imaginary plastic money.

And I think you'd be surprised - I'd bet a lot of people go backwards on credit by only a few dollars a week, and before they know it they're $100 behind, then $200, then the interest kicks in and they've gone into debt for not watching the small things.

Edit: I used to buy online with a credit card, but I got rid of it as soon as I could get a debit card that works like a credit card - saves me doing a few transfers each time I buy something online.
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I guess my point is that we don't do everything the same way. I'm not in debt at all. I use cash and credit cards. I pay off my credit card all of the time. Sometimes two times in one month. However, I'm not afraid of a credit card and I can do simple math. It's been a decade since I've had any debt. I don't own a house or a car though.

Certain purchases are just easier on credit in my opinion (and debit cards can work here too). I also understand that someone else may choose another way to manage their money and do it successfully (even with debt). There's no one size fits all. Managing / budgeting your money on a monthly basis is easy for some, very hard for others. If you're in the latter category, then credit can be dangerous. If you are in the former category, it's not that hard.
 
jsrockit said:
I guess my point is that we don't do everything the same way. I'm not in debt at all. I use cash and credit cards. I pay off my credit card all of the time. Sometimes two times in one month. However, I'm not afraid of a credit card and I can do simple math. It's been a decade since I've had any debt. I don't own a house or a car though.

Certain purchases are just easier on credit in my opinion (and debit cards can work here too). I also understand that someone else may choose another way to manage their money and do it successfully (even with debt). There's no one size fits all. Managing / budgeting your money on a monthly basis is easy for some, very hard for others. If you're in the latter category, then credit can be dangerous. If you are in the former category, it's not that hard.
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Agreed. But I fear that many of my friends and family do not have a good relationship with debt.
And the 7th beer does horrible things for my maths!
 
I have noticed that when I allow a little credit card debt to accumulate and then pay it off
my credit score rises higher than when I pay it all off immediately.
That said I prefer not to carry a balance. I have no other debts and do not own a home.

I'd love to own a Leica but with lens anything I'd want would cost more than I paid for my used car.
I use the car to get back and forth to work but I don't sell my photographs; I can't justify the expense.

Surely over the years I've spent far more than the cost of a Leica outfit on all my photo gear.
One body and one lens is fine for today, but tomorrow I might want to use a different outfit...

Chris
 
The more I read threads like this, the more I remember advice from my late dad:

"Free advice is worth every penny you paid for it."
 
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