Dr. No or Dr. Nr.

[Erik van Straten]

About the Nr. or No indication before the serial number on screw mount cameras from the 1950s I've always thought that "No" meant that the camera was original and "Nr." meant that it was a conversion. Recently I discovered that from a certain point only the prefix Nr. was used, also for original cameras. The M-Leicas do not have a prefix. A strange fact is that the cut is not clean: before and after camera 500.000 - it has the prefix Nr. - both Nr. and No are used.

The question is: why No was changed into Nr.?

The illustrated camera can be a conversion: it has a selftimer.

Erik.

 

[Bille]

See here for a start
http://www.rangefinderforum.com/forums/showthread.php?t=117365

 

[Erik van Straten]

Thank you very much, Bille, I do not remember I've ever seen this thread before.

This comment of Sevo is very useful and most probably very true:

Leica switched from No. to Nr. with the IIIf, but as far as I can make out, there is no strict consistency to numbers on factory replacement top plates - whether these received the original number in original or new spelling seems to have been at the liberty of the engraver.

Erik.

 

[Dralowid]

I reckon this is a conversion too...

IMG_0106 by dralowid, on Flickr

...but then it started life as a '49 IIIc

 

[lxmike]

this thread has some wonderful eye candy in it

 

[Filzkoeter]

"№" was the old short term for Nummer (from numero) in German. It was replaced by "Nr." at some point.
But I don't know when that change happened (I found some old newspaper covers from the 1920s and 1930s and also law texts fron the 1930s that already used "Nr.").
I think people born before the change, who learned the short form "№" at school, still used it for quite a long time. And so the first Leicas were engraved "№".
As time flew by and the short form "№" became uncommon, Leica propably changed to the modern form of "Nr."

 

[Erik van Straten]

As time flew by and the short form "№" became uncommon, Leica propably changed to the modern form of "Nr."

Thank you, Filzkoeter, for this information.

It would be interesting to know when this change took place. We could determine the date of the conversions of the screwmounts a bit.

The IIIf was introduced in 1950. Maybe the IIIc's that were produced later still had the No engraved.

Erik.

 

[Filzkoeter]

It seems that it was a gradual change, and No was used for quite some time for running numbers.

Okay, I found some Leicas with Nr. and No, so we can narrow the point when it changed:

IIc: 459*** Nr.
IIIc: 468*** No
IIIc 469*** No
Ic 520*** No
Ic 521*** Nr.
Ic 522** Nr.
IIIf 525*** Nr.
IIIf 531*** No
IIIf 534*** No
IIIf 539*** Nr.
my IIIf 555*** Nr.
IIIf (canadian) 610*** No

It makes no sense at all. It seems to be completly mixed in the years 1950/1951 😉

But around 90% of IIIf and IIIc before 539*** seem to have No. and 99% after 539*** are Nr. (the canadian one was the only odd one I found). A short conclusion: the change happened in 1950/51. Older serials with Nr. could be conversions/top plate exchanges that happened after 1950/51

 

[David Hughes]

Hmmm, from what I can remember the engraving would be done tracing around a large plate with the text cut deep into it and the engraving head being on the end of a pantograph to make it much smaller. Well, that was how I saw it done in the 50's at a factory making accounting machines. (Burroughs; National Cash; ITC(?) or similar.)

It was a slow process and done by hand. So I would guess that Leitz had several machines doing it and one still had the old version of the guide plate in use until they were all converted to the new style. I doubt if they would be feed into the system in numerical order.

Regards, David

 

[Erik van Straten]

It makes no sense at all. I

Thank you very much for this research, Filzkoeter. Things have become a bit more clear.

Erik.

 

[Erik van Straten]

Hmmm, from what I can remember the engraving would be done tracing around a large plate with the text cut deep into it and the engraving head being on the end of a pantograph to make it much smaller.

After the M4 was phased out the engraving of the serial numbers of the cameras became more modern, usually on the accessory shoes and there were no longer spaces in them.

Erik.

 

[Pherdinand]

of course canadian has No., being made for the english/french speaking market 🙂
Nr. is what germans would use ...in German.

I have the feeling it depended more on what market the camera was intended for.

 

[Livesteamer]

My newest Barnack starts at 425307 so it's not close to these but I am a retired machinist. After too many years in a factory I suspect that Leica and it's workers were more interested in quality and production than where the change happened exactly. I suspect one pattern was phased out and a new pattern phased in so the change over likely took some time. Just what seems likely to me. Joe

 

[sevo]

of course canadian has No., being made for the english/french speaking market 🙂
Nr. is what germans would use ...in German.

I have the feeling it depended more on what market the camera was intended for.

There is No. on all early ones in Germany as well. "No." once used to be the common German abbreviation, too - Italian rooted, by the way, the international financial language between the Renaissance and 19th century had been Italian, leaving traces in the financial and trade terms of most European languages.

 

[David Hughes]

Hi,

Hmmm, I thought 'No' was short for 'numero', which is French, of course, because there's no letter 'o' in the word 'number'. And money to me is ' LSD' from the Latin. It's academic, so no great worry; even the spelling checker ignored it.

Regards, David

 

[pete hogan]

IIf (D.R.P.) Nr. 573***
Elmar 90/4 Nr. 1039***
Both 1952

 

[Luddite Frank]

I reckon this is a conversion too...

IMG_0106 by dralowid, on Flickr

...but then it started life as a '49 IIIc

Michael, I have a IIIc that was converted to Black Dial & Self-Timer, serial No 4439xx.

The sync dial plate is an add-on attached to the original (?) top plate with tiny screws. Shutter speeds run 30-1, 40, 60, etc.

Luddite Frank

 

[iphoenix]

My black dial IIIf conversion's s/no. is 430346 and is a No.

Interestingly, the take-up spool is Canadian. Not proof of anything because of the ease of replacement, but maybe an indication of a possibility.