NickTrop
Veteran
DSLR vs Micro Four Thirds: head to head review
http://www.photoradar.com/reviews/b...rds-head-to-head-review?page=0,0&t=1271256662
Concurs with what I've said all along, albeit more politely. Micro Four Thirds? Keep'em. No advantage at all over compact DSLRs...
Handling
1. "There are distinct advantages in the D5000’s comparative chunkiness, in that it feels much more comfortable and natural in the hand. Combine this with the way the camera locks into your face when using the viewfinder and camera shake becomes much less of a problem..."
IQ
2. Pretty much no contest if you read the review... Detail/Definition, metering, dynamic range, "image pop"...
Verdict
3. No contest - compact DSLR, in this case the now discontinued Nikon D5000. There is negligible advantage in terms of "pocketability" or weight when both cameras have their zooms attached. Article cites that the larger Nikon body actually handles better (due to the grip) than the Panny. The only timethe 4/3 has an advantage in this are is if you have its pancake lens attached. In my case I bought the body only and keep the smaller 35/1.8 attached, which is smaller than the Panny zoom, extended. In every other aspect - most importantly IQ, the compact with its larger sensor wins hands down.
Don't fall for the hype of these cameras. They offer nothing in terms of handle-ability over compact DSLRs. Key tools are "lopped off" like a VF typically, and made to be pricey ala carte add-ons. You're short-changed on the most expensive component, the sensor. The only advantage they offer is not for the consumer, rather the camera companies who presumably have higher margins on these cameras due to presumably lower production costs and the added accessory revenue stream. If I took my D5000, lopped off the VF, lopped off the flash, and substantially decreased the sensor, would I have purchased it? No.
http://www.photoradar.com/reviews/b...rds-head-to-head-review?page=0,0&t=1271256662
Concurs with what I've said all along, albeit more politely. Micro Four Thirds? Keep'em. No advantage at all over compact DSLRs...
Handling
1. "There are distinct advantages in the D5000’s comparative chunkiness, in that it feels much more comfortable and natural in the hand. Combine this with the way the camera locks into your face when using the viewfinder and camera shake becomes much less of a problem..."
IQ
2. Pretty much no contest if you read the review... Detail/Definition, metering, dynamic range, "image pop"...
Verdict
3. No contest - compact DSLR, in this case the now discontinued Nikon D5000. There is negligible advantage in terms of "pocketability" or weight when both cameras have their zooms attached. Article cites that the larger Nikon body actually handles better (due to the grip) than the Panny. The only timethe 4/3 has an advantage in this are is if you have its pancake lens attached. In my case I bought the body only and keep the smaller 35/1.8 attached, which is smaller than the Panny zoom, extended. In every other aspect - most importantly IQ, the compact with its larger sensor wins hands down.
Don't fall for the hype of these cameras. They offer nothing in terms of handle-ability over compact DSLRs. Key tools are "lopped off" like a VF typically, and made to be pricey ala carte add-ons. You're short-changed on the most expensive component, the sensor. The only advantage they offer is not for the consumer, rather the camera companies who presumably have higher margins on these cameras due to presumably lower production costs and the added accessory revenue stream. If I took my D5000, lopped off the VF, lopped off the flash, and substantially decreased the sensor, would I have purchased it? No.
Al Patterson
Ferroequinologist
Nick, when I can use my Leica lenses on a Nikon or Canon DSLR, I'll stop thinking about Micro 4/3.
Note that I bought a DSLR first though...
Note that I bought a DSLR first though...
Some people just do not like SLRs...
NickTrop
Veteran
Pot stirred. Have fun, kids...
PS - thank you, sonofdanang, for a thoughtful/insightful, well-articulated post...
Edit/Add:
__________________________________________________
"The practical optical advantage of rangefinder lenses (okay, Leica) over modern SLR glass has been reduced to the degree that it is nearly inconsequential in practical terms..." - sonofdang
To your point - the simple Nikon 35/1.8 Chinese-made, plastic fantastic APS-C "nifty-fifty" costs around $200, about what a Leica lens hood costs (this comes with one, and a pouch...) It is a stellar perfomer wide-open at 1.8, barely detectable contrast lost, vignetting, loss of sharpness. - It can be used wide open without trepidation, and I do. It used to be the measure of expensive glass that it performed at wide aps better than the garden variety Tomioka Optical stuff. No longer true. The other issue is "signature". That can be added - indeed personalized, in post and not indelibly "imposed" by what some optical engineer in Solms thinks is pleasing. The last remaining realm is focal-length/speed exotica - that's more for "spec-aholics" than anything practical. The "barkeeps" at Solms (and Japan) will gladly feed your addiction - for a fee.
PS - thank you, sonofdanang, for a thoughtful/insightful, well-articulated post...
Edit/Add:
__________________________________________________
"The practical optical advantage of rangefinder lenses (okay, Leica) over modern SLR glass has been reduced to the degree that it is nearly inconsequential in practical terms..." - sonofdang
To your point - the simple Nikon 35/1.8 Chinese-made, plastic fantastic APS-C "nifty-fifty" costs around $200, about what a Leica lens hood costs (this comes with one, and a pouch...) It is a stellar perfomer wide-open at 1.8, barely detectable contrast lost, vignetting, loss of sharpness. - It can be used wide open without trepidation, and I do. It used to be the measure of expensive glass that it performed at wide aps better than the garden variety Tomioka Optical stuff. No longer true. The other issue is "signature". That can be added - indeed personalized, in post and not indelibly "imposed" by what some optical engineer in Solms thinks is pleasing. The last remaining realm is focal-length/speed exotica - that's more for "spec-aholics" than anything practical. The "barkeeps" at Solms (and Japan) will gladly feed your addiction - for a fee.
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Jack Conrad
Well-known
I love reading this stuff, one and all.
usayit
Well-known
Sheesh.. this all around a pointless comparison (and discussion).
Might as well take it further and compare professional full frame DSLRs to a P&S. Demonstrate to Best buy consumers just how much nicer of a pictures it takes. I bet a large portion will still take a decent P&S... more practical, priced right, compact, fits the consumer's lifestyle, and fits THEIR notion of "good enough" picture quality.
Different priorities. ...
Oh yeh... I sold my DSLR and all its lenses for a m4/3rds. I'll go back when it can share lenses with my M8 and M9.
Might as well take it further and compare professional full frame DSLRs to a P&S. Demonstrate to Best buy consumers just how much nicer of a pictures it takes. I bet a large portion will still take a decent P&S... more practical, priced right, compact, fits the consumer's lifestyle, and fits THEIR notion of "good enough" picture quality.
Different priorities. ...
Oh yeh... I sold my DSLR and all its lenses for a m4/3rds. I'll go back when it can share lenses with my M8 and M9.
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kully
Happy Snapper
Crikey, how did this thread go from micro4/3 hating to driving at 60mph with cruise control active?
nightfly
Well-known
To be fair if I were going to buy one of these, I'd probably keep one of the smaller pancake lenses on it all the time anyway and I'd imagine that's how a lot of people use them (at least RFF people) so the size advantage is more real than if you are using a zoom. Also the colors coming out of the EP1/EP2 seem a lot nicer than the ones from the Panasonic.
But I'm not buying any of these so it doesn't really matter.
But I'm not buying any of these so it doesn't really matter.
NickTrop
Veteran
Pot stirred, carry on. FYI - rice cooked in a $10 rice cooker. I suck at cooking rice. Did decide to add a piece of salmon to the mix. Quite good. A dash of Merlot, some lemon juice, minced garlic.
Nothing wrong with a Dell - works fine, no probs at all knock on wood.
Randomness is good. Not enough of it. Einstein was wrong... God does, play dice. It's the nature of things, as we're discovering.
4/3rd's cameras deserve the lashing I give them. Crass consumerism at its worst, but we forego the fruit we bear - the dollar, most willingly and stupidly to the higher up preditors on the food chain, the corporation - regardless of warnings however dire... as always.
Also as always, while you're most certainly entitled to your assessment on matters regarding photography, photographic gear, and any and all other topics, the extent to which that opinion diverges from my own is directly proportonate to the degree to which this assessment is incorrect.
Nothing wrong with a Dell - works fine, no probs at all knock on wood.
Randomness is good. Not enough of it. Einstein was wrong... God does, play dice. It's the nature of things, as we're discovering.
4/3rd's cameras deserve the lashing I give them. Crass consumerism at its worst, but we forego the fruit we bear - the dollar, most willingly and stupidly to the higher up preditors on the food chain, the corporation - regardless of warnings however dire... as always.
Also as always, while you're most certainly entitled to your assessment on matters regarding photography, photographic gear, and any and all other topics, the extent to which that opinion diverges from my own is directly proportonate to the degree to which this assessment is incorrect.
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noimmunity
scratch my niche
I like this thread. Have no interest at this point in either system...
At the arts university where I teach, I shared the 18 minute Chinese-subtitled version of the short film, "The Story of Stuff" (which has a very good layman's explanation of "externalization"), with a class of about 50 students. During the viewing, one of the students from the Fine Arts Department asked the other students to participate in a visual arts project being done by some students and faculty in that department to highlight some problems with lack of self-governance in the university's administration by drawing or writing some criticisms/suggestions. Nearly half the students closed their eyes and feigned sleep, preferring not to watch the film. Only a handful of students participated in the project. Most of the complaints concerned issues they had with their own embodied experience: poor food, lack of bus stop signs, lack of parking places. After that exercise, I put on a piece of the film "Truman Show". Those who had been 'sleeping' suddenly woke up and were all eyes.
A couple of tentative conclusions:
1) There's a lot of people who want to sleep through the coming crises...Especially for populations that have historically been denied the 'benefits' of high-consumerism, or have been forced to pay the costs of externalization incurred by high consumption populations in other parts of the planet, the pursuit of a high consumerist ideal is virtually hard wired into their desire by now.
2) education is already a highly disembodied experience because it occurs in the mode of information...
3) ...the informational arts university forms people to be more like "creative networkers" rather than artists.
sorry, back to cameras...
At the arts university where I teach, I shared the 18 minute Chinese-subtitled version of the short film, "The Story of Stuff" (which has a very good layman's explanation of "externalization"), with a class of about 50 students. During the viewing, one of the students from the Fine Arts Department asked the other students to participate in a visual arts project being done by some students and faculty in that department to highlight some problems with lack of self-governance in the university's administration by drawing or writing some criticisms/suggestions. Nearly half the students closed their eyes and feigned sleep, preferring not to watch the film. Only a handful of students participated in the project. Most of the complaints concerned issues they had with their own embodied experience: poor food, lack of bus stop signs, lack of parking places. After that exercise, I put on a piece of the film "Truman Show". Those who had been 'sleeping' suddenly woke up and were all eyes.
A couple of tentative conclusions:
1) There's a lot of people who want to sleep through the coming crises...Especially for populations that have historically been denied the 'benefits' of high-consumerism, or have been forced to pay the costs of externalization incurred by high consumption populations in other parts of the planet, the pursuit of a high consumerist ideal is virtually hard wired into their desire by now.
2) education is already a highly disembodied experience because it occurs in the mode of information...
3) ...the informational arts university forms people to be more like "creative networkers" rather than artists.
sorry, back to cameras...
NickTrop
Veteran
I teach too... In a lecture on critical thinking I showed the move, Collapse. They will have to write a yeah/nay essay. Should be interesting. I might suggest this "possibly" for your class. Certainly, they were wide-eyed. Facinating flick. I will look for The Story of Stuff. Sounds interesting...
But "hardwired"?!?! Ya think? Let's hope not. I say "conditioned" - and it's a cancer that's spreading.
NickTrop
Veteran
The thread is dedicated to the novel, Finnegan's Wake.
Griffin
Grampa's cameras user
The more I learn about phtogography, the more I realise the four thirds sensor is just too small for me. Damn shame 'cause they be the best looking cams out there today. Until the Fuji of course!
Ordered a Hama 30501 today, and I'm gonna strap some old Praktica glass onto my MX!
Ordered a Hama 30501 today, and I'm gonna strap some old Praktica glass onto my MX!
noimmunity
scratch my niche
I'll have a look at Collapse.
The Truman Show is full of traps.
A loopy but interesting fictional interpretation can be found here:
http://www.mediafire.com/?tjrtide2gkmjh8d
The Story of Stuff
http://www.storyofstuff.com/
Hardwired is a word that comes from a misunderstanding of neurobiology as destiny, rather than plasticity. A silly choice, on my part.
Critically-minded arts students are in a wonderful position to understand the ramifications of human plasticity. This is why Paul Valery saw the plastic arts as the foundation of (Western) art. (and also why as an avowed eurocentrist, he adamantly insisted that the specificity of the West lay not in any particular traits, such as religion, skin color, geography, etc., but simply in its ability to incessantly self-transform). The transition from creative networker (=exploitation of plasticity) to artist (collective and personal stewardship of plasticity) really only requires a perspectival change. But to communicate through the conditioning requires all sorts of techniques. Nick, your question (to everyone) is really how to make 'refusal' into an object of positive desire. And that doesn't just mean a dRF from Zeiss or Cosina for the masses
The Truman Show is full of traps.
A loopy but interesting fictional interpretation can be found here:
http://www.mediafire.com/?tjrtide2gkmjh8d
The Story of Stuff
http://www.storyofstuff.com/
Hardwired is a word that comes from a misunderstanding of neurobiology as destiny, rather than plasticity. A silly choice, on my part.
Critically-minded arts students are in a wonderful position to understand the ramifications of human plasticity. This is why Paul Valery saw the plastic arts as the foundation of (Western) art. (and also why as an avowed eurocentrist, he adamantly insisted that the specificity of the West lay not in any particular traits, such as religion, skin color, geography, etc., but simply in its ability to incessantly self-transform). The transition from creative networker (=exploitation of plasticity) to artist (collective and personal stewardship of plasticity) really only requires a perspectival change. But to communicate through the conditioning requires all sorts of techniques. Nick, your question (to everyone) is really how to make 'refusal' into an object of positive desire. And that doesn't just mean a dRF from Zeiss or Cosina for the masses
rdeleskie
Well-known
Hmm. What looks like crass consumerism to me are all the folks buying high-spec'd, overpowered DSLRs thinking they will make them better photographers. They shoot them like mad for about three months, then realize they are too large and bulky to bring to the events they actually want to photograph: a kid's birthday party, a walk in the woods, a wander downtown, a family trip overseas. We don't all want to look like working wedding photographers, all the time.
I shot a D40X for years. Probably about the same size as a D5000. There's no way the size compares to the EPL1 I recently picked up. The EPL1 with the pancake or the retractable zoom fits into my small bag with my rangefinder, and into the pocket of my spring coat. It gets lost in the pockets of my winter jacket.
I just spent a week shooting it in Lisbon, along with my M6. A great street combo IMO. It offered me precisely the advantages over a p&s (interchangeable lens, a larger sensor) and a dslr (small size, the ability to take my Leica glass) I was looking for. I'll shoot it this Christmas without looking like I'm covering my family for a profile in a glossy photo mag. The lack of dirty looks alone will be worth the cost.
The larger body M4/3s like the GH2 make a little less sense to me - unless you have made an investment in Panasonic or Olympus glass and want the capabilities of the larger camera on occasion (particularly on the video side). That said, the ability to take a lens from a larger bodied camera, then stick it on a camera you can drop in your coat pocket or courier bag, is quite appealing.
As far as paper-racing the M4/3s cameras vs DSLRs based on specs...ISO, latitude, fps, etc., it all kind of bores me. Compared to my DSLR gear, the EPL1 will give me an equally pleasing image in a given lighting situation probably 90% of the time. The main difference is that I'll have the EPL1 with me, while the Nikon sits in my large camera bag at home. For my shooting style, that seems to be a fair trade for a stop or two less latitude, or nosier high-ISO.
I shot a D40X for years. Probably about the same size as a D5000. There's no way the size compares to the EPL1 I recently picked up. The EPL1 with the pancake or the retractable zoom fits into my small bag with my rangefinder, and into the pocket of my spring coat. It gets lost in the pockets of my winter jacket.
I just spent a week shooting it in Lisbon, along with my M6. A great street combo IMO. It offered me precisely the advantages over a p&s (interchangeable lens, a larger sensor) and a dslr (small size, the ability to take my Leica glass) I was looking for. I'll shoot it this Christmas without looking like I'm covering my family for a profile in a glossy photo mag. The lack of dirty looks alone will be worth the cost.
The larger body M4/3s like the GH2 make a little less sense to me - unless you have made an investment in Panasonic or Olympus glass and want the capabilities of the larger camera on occasion (particularly on the video side). That said, the ability to take a lens from a larger bodied camera, then stick it on a camera you can drop in your coat pocket or courier bag, is quite appealing.
As far as paper-racing the M4/3s cameras vs DSLRs based on specs...ISO, latitude, fps, etc., it all kind of bores me. Compared to my DSLR gear, the EPL1 will give me an equally pleasing image in a given lighting situation probably 90% of the time. The main difference is that I'll have the EPL1 with me, while the Nikon sits in my large camera bag at home. For my shooting style, that seems to be a fair trade for a stop or two less latitude, or nosier high-ISO.
NickTrop
Veteran
Nick, your question (to everyone) is really how to make 'refusal' into an object of positive desire. And that doesn't just mean a dRF from Zeiss or Cosina for the masses
Damn people are friggin bright on this blog... Perhaps it's why it continues to fascinate/interest me well beyond my usual gnat-like attention span.
NickTrop
Veteran
You carry a bag? I just carry the D5000 on a wrist-strap. I keep a plastic baggy in my back pocket in case of rain.
gavinlg
Veteran
That was a pretty bad review.... The gf1 is the worst of the m4/3 crop as far as IQ goes - for instance the current cheapest model in the lineup (e-pl1) is better than most cheap DSLRs. -----> http://www.dpreview.com/reviews/olympusepl1/page13.asp
DNG
Film Friendly
Oh How I get tired of mine is better than yours, or I have a bigger one, or I have a newer one, or I have a faster one, or I have the latest one...
Just buy the cameras you like, for the qualities you want from each one....
These people need to get over themselves and take some photographs.
Cheezzzz Luweezzz Mannnnn
rant over for now
Just buy the cameras you like, for the qualities you want from each one....
These people need to get over themselves and take some photographs.
Cheezzzz Luweezzz Mannnnn
rant over for now