unsharp
Established
Just purchased a HP 4070 flatbed. I am trying it out and have the possibility to return it if I dont like it 
.
This scanner does not have built in dust removal (does any scanner have?) and the function is not in the software either.
Does anyone know, is it possible to purchase separate dust removal software, or does this function have to be in the scanner from the beginning? Happy for all advice!
Anders
. This scanner does not have built in dust removal (does any scanner have?) and the function is not in the software either.
Does anyone know, is it possible to purchase separate dust removal software, or does this function have to be in the scanner from the beginning? Happy for all advice!
Anders
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chmeyer
Member
I'm not sure about flatbed scanners or individual software,
but I do know that the Nikon Coolscan series with "digital ice" technology are very good. You can get very good 35mm scans, remove almost all dust and scratches and color correct images in a single step.
All of the photos in my gallery were scanned with the Coolscan IV.
Chris
but I do know that the Nikon Coolscan series with "digital ice" technology are very good. You can get very good 35mm scans, remove almost all dust and scratches and color correct images in a single step.
All of the photos in my gallery were scanned with the Coolscan IV.
Chris
kiev4a
Well-known
I believe programs like Digital Ice have to be specific to a certain scanner. Dust and scratch removal isn't part of scanner hardware. I do know none of the programs will remove dust and scratches from black and white silver halide negs. I made a fool of myself ranting because my Canon 9950F ScanGear software didn't have that feature. Then some knowledgable forum members clued me in that such programs can't handle silver film.
sockeyed
Well-known
My Minolta Duan Scan IV came with pretty good dust removal capabilities in the software, but I generally prefer to remove dust by hand after scanning by using the clone tool (rubber stamp) in Photoshop. I find that software that is applied to the whole image softens the image and can wreak havoc on things like power lines, which the software often considers a scratch or hair.
unsharp
Established
hmm
hmm
thanks. I guess I am returning the HP 4070. There is a problem with the adapter light anyway.
The purpose for me using a scanner is only for screen (also TV screen) viewing. I plan to do all printing at a photo store, directly from the negs.
Is there a not too expensive scanner, flatbed or not, with such ICE dust removal function that will suffice for my purpose. Flatbed would be nice since I have and think I will get more, medium format gear, but low price/ICE are the key points.
What about the Epson 3170. Price is OK and it has some dust removal function?
Chris, very nice photos. Especially liked the G1 pictures. Very artistic! And the polar bear. I viewed it for a long time. Will comment in your gallery later.
Anders
hmm
thanks. I guess I am returning the HP 4070. There is a problem with the adapter light anyway.
The purpose for me using a scanner is only for screen (also TV screen) viewing. I plan to do all printing at a photo store, directly from the negs.
Is there a not too expensive scanner, flatbed or not, with such ICE dust removal function that will suffice for my purpose. Flatbed would be nice since I have and think I will get more, medium format gear, but low price/ICE are the key points.
What about the Epson 3170. Price is OK and it has some dust removal function?
Chris, very nice photos. Especially liked the G1 pictures. Very artistic!
And the polar bear. I viewed it for a long time. Will comment in your gallery later. Anders
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unsharp
Established
Did not see your post Sockeyed, while I was typing away on my own. I have understood that there must downsides to the ICE, but I can accept it. Photoshop is just too much to learn right now. Still, thanks for the clearification on the ICE downsides.
Anders
Anders
mr roberts
Just R
anders,
it might be worth a look to see if lasersoft imaging's silverfast is compatible with your flatbed. i use it with my polaroid sprintscan and epson flatbed with good results. they have integrated a utility called negafix which might have some capabilities in the area of scratch, dust and fade repair.
bob
it might be worth a look to see if lasersoft imaging's silverfast is compatible with your flatbed. i use it with my polaroid sprintscan and epson flatbed with good results. they have integrated a utility called negafix which might have some capabilities in the area of scratch, dust and fade repair.
bob
Digital ICE is combination of hardware and software features for spot removal. It involves an infrared scan that is then compared with the visible light scan to identify the spots to be removed. Dust and lint are opaque to both IR and visible light, but the dye clouds in color film do pass IR, allowing the dirt to be identified as such.
But the silver grains of Kodachrome and traditional B&W films are opaque to IR and so Digital ICE can't work with these films. It sees every grain as a dirt spot!
But the silver grains of Kodachrome and traditional B&W films are opaque to IR and so Digital ICE can't work with these films. It sees every grain as a dirt spot!
unsharp
Established
Embarasing and unsharp
Embarasing and unsharp
Ajaj uj uj. What an emarrasement. There was a wire to the neg.adapter I had not connected. Now the negscanning works.
But the scans are unsharp! (I know, I know. But I dont like beeing unsharp). I tried sharpening and higher DPI: 300, 600, 1200, 3600 (yes, the HP scanner defines the resolution that way!) but it does not help. Is this where the price comes in? As i said I primarely want to use the scans for posting on the web, but this HP 4070 is not good enough even for this. Also lows loose all detail.
I feal I am totaly lost in this field. I can not really ask for you guys to teach me all about scanning. I want a scanner that basicly does the work. Dont want to use too much software-ing. If this means I need to buy an expensive one, so be it. I will save up for it. There is a photo fair here in end April, there might be some demonstrations there. Guess I will stay unsharp until then
Anders
attached is a scan from a Provia 100F frame taken with my Leica CM. It is at 200 dpi but the higher dpi scans are basicly the same. Also is a (damaged) print of a Frontier scan. That one is very sharp and shows all detail in the lows of her hair.
Embarasing and unsharp
Ajaj uj uj. What an emarrasement. There was a wire to the neg.adapter I had not connected. Now the negscanning works.
But the scans are unsharp! (I know, I know. But I dont like beeing unsharp). I tried sharpening and higher DPI: 300, 600, 1200, 3600 (yes, the HP scanner defines the resolution that way!) but it does not help. Is this where the price comes in? As i said I primarely want to use the scans for posting on the web, but this HP 4070 is not good enough even for this. Also lows loose all detail.
I feal I am totaly lost in this field. I can not really ask for you guys to teach me all about scanning. I want a scanner that basicly does the work. Dont want to use too much software-ing. If this means I need to buy an expensive one, so be it. I will save up for it. There is a photo fair here in end April, there might be some demonstrations there. Guess I will stay unsharp until then
Anders
attached is a scan from a Provia 100F frame taken with my Leica CM. It is at 200 dpi but the higher dpi scans are basicly the same. Also is a (damaged) print of a Frontier scan. That one is very sharp and shows all detail in the lows of her hair.
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mr roberts
Just R
Silverfast AI
Silverfast AI
Doug,
I've been away from film for quite a while using a 10D and a G5 since their respective releases and a Pro90 before that and now that I think of it, Negafix was the film profiling tool. SDR is a non-hardware dependent dust and scratch detection/correction tool. Perhaps its' independence from infrared will work in its favor in B&W scans. I would imagine that you've heard this before.
I haven't yet loaded the v6 update for either of my scanners, but with the impending New England standard weekend rain moving in I might have a chance to install and run some test scans with the SDR function which appears in this latest version.
If anyone has spent time with this software version I'd be interested in your experiences before spending the time on the upgrades and testing. It might also prevent me from making bad recommendations in the future.
Anders,
They also have a listing of all supported scanners. I'm not sure the last time that the list was updated, but the 4070 isn't listed there now. Perhaps you could contact them directly if it's worth your while.
Ian Lyons has written a brief update review of this software found here <http://www.computer-darkroom.com/sfastv6/silverfastv61.htm>. The same site contains some useful tutorials on its use.
Good luck in whatever move you make.
Bob
Silverfast AI
Doug,
I've been away from film for quite a while using a 10D and a G5 since their respective releases and a Pro90 before that and now that I think of it, Negafix was the film profiling tool. SDR is a non-hardware dependent dust and scratch detection/correction tool. Perhaps its' independence from infrared will work in its favor in B&W scans. I would imagine that you've heard this before.
I haven't yet loaded the v6 update for either of my scanners, but with the impending New England standard weekend rain moving in I might have a chance to install and run some test scans with the SDR function which appears in this latest version.
If anyone has spent time with this software version I'd be interested in your experiences before spending the time on the upgrades and testing. It might also prevent me from making bad recommendations in the future.
Anders,
They also have a listing of all supported scanners. I'm not sure the last time that the list was updated, but the 4070 isn't listed there now. Perhaps you could contact them directly if it's worth your while.
Ian Lyons has written a brief update review of this software found here <http://www.computer-darkroom.com/sfastv6/silverfastv61.htm>. The same site contains some useful tutorials on its use.
Good luck in whatever move you make.
Bob
Hi Bob -- I don't know about software-only dust/scratch solutions; I've only heard there are some.
Hi Anders -- Your scan looks as sharp to me as the larger lab scan (which has a lot of dirt visible especially in the shadow side of her hair!). On your scan, the scanning exposure is quite different, so that is the main difference I see. And no dirt!
Hi Anders -- Your scan looks as sharp to me as the larger lab scan (which has a lot of dirt visible especially in the shadow side of her hair!). On your scan, the scanning exposure is quite different, so that is the main difference I see. And no dirt!
N
Nikon Bob
Guest
Anders
I could be wrong but it may not be possible to scan either a neg or print and not have to do some some digital corrections. Either with the supplied scanner software or something like Photo Shop afterwards. The use of some Unsharp Mask (USM) is almost always necessary because it is in the nature of digital capture to require it. It does not have to be a complicated act to perform as some people would have you believe. If the lighter thumbnail was from the scanner a little USM is maybe all it needs to makr you happy. With a flatbed scanner I would just scan the print if it is for web or screen viewing.
Bob
I could be wrong but it may not be possible to scan either a neg or print and not have to do some some digital corrections. Either with the supplied scanner software or something like Photo Shop afterwards. The use of some Unsharp Mask (USM) is almost always necessary because it is in the nature of digital capture to require it. It does not have to be a complicated act to perform as some people would have you believe. If the lighter thumbnail was from the scanner a little USM is maybe all it needs to makr you happy. With a flatbed scanner I would just scan the print if it is for web or screen viewing.
Bob
kiev4a
Well-known
Nikon Bob said:
It is very difficult, even with dust and scratch removal options to get a "perfect scan" that doesn't require additional tweaking in a photoshop-type program -- especially with 35mm film. Some of my 120 scans hold up pretty well without additional work but I'm starting with a much larger neg so I don't have to enlarge as much.
It's best to scan 35mm slides or film at 2800 dpi or better. On mine I then size them in Photoshop to the largest dimensions I'll likely need--say 8x10, and reduce it to 300 dpi to save space.
N
Nikon Bob
Guest
Well, I was not thinking of format size, only that because it is a digital capture it will need some USM and other tweaking to get the best out of a scan no matter what. I should have added that even with scanning a print some PS will be needed. Really hard to get away with none at all.
Bob
Bob
unsharp
Established
Thanks all!
Doug, the dirt in the Frontier scan (the right one) is a damage in the print. I actually wet my thumb and tried to remove some dirt. Can you believe it! It works on my BW prints but the color print got damaged.
My scan (to the left) is as you say a lot darker. If I try to make it lighter, I do not get much more detail and there will be horizontal lines across the whole image.
Do you really think it is as sharp? Im at office right now (dont tell) and the screen here has difficulties to show this, I agree. At home the difference is obvious I think. Not to mention the print (and slide) off course, they are eons ahead in overall quality to my judgement, but that was expected.
Bob, this "unsharp mask" seams not to be in the HP software. Is it a uniqe Photoshop function?
Anders
Doug, the dirt in the Frontier scan (the right one) is a damage in the print. I actually wet my thumb and tried to remove some dirt. Can you believe it! It works on my BW prints but the color print got damaged.
My scan (to the left) is as you say a lot darker. If I try to make it lighter, I do not get much more detail and there will be horizontal lines across the whole image.
Do you really think it is as sharp? Im at office right now (dont tell) and the screen here has difficulties to show this, I agree. At home the difference is obvious I think. Not to mention the print (and slide) off course, they are eons ahead in overall quality to my judgement, but that was expected.
Bob, this "unsharp mask" seams not to be in the HP software. Is it a uniqe Photoshop function?
Anders
T
Tim
Guest
I've come in late to this thread.....I can add some of my own experiences.
I used to have an HP flatbed scanner with the neg/slide attachment. Can't remember which model. It did an OK job but I was never really happy with it. Definately didn't do sharp scans, even for displaying at 800 X 600 on the net.
I bought a Nikon Coolscan IV. It is great! The ICE works brilliantly on colour, but as someone remarked earlier on in this thread you do make a fool of yourself until it is gently pointed out that ICE doesn't work on B&W.......
I've found that once I worked out the base settings generally I can use this on Velvia transparencies with the ICE set on and not have to do post processing in Photoshop. It selivers very nice, sharp, clear scans.
From the research I did, I think ultimately you need to buy a dedicated film scanner, and one with the ICE function incorporated - it will never be the same if it's an add-on. Of course, that's gonna be more expensive. And if you want to do MF, then dedicated film scanners are horribly expensive.
One option that's come up recently is the Epson ?4870? ?4990? which is a flatbed which supposedly does a good job of scanning film up to 4x5 - not cheap, but nowhere near as expensive as (say) a Coolscan 9000.
Anyway, bottom line I found was that if you wanted good results it was going to cost you some serious money
I used to have an HP flatbed scanner with the neg/slide attachment. Can't remember which model. It did an OK job but I was never really happy with it. Definately didn't do sharp scans, even for displaying at 800 X 600 on the net.
I bought a Nikon Coolscan IV. It is great! The ICE works brilliantly on colour, but as someone remarked earlier on in this thread you do make a fool of yourself until it is gently pointed out that ICE doesn't work on B&W.......
I've found that once I worked out the base settings generally I can use this on Velvia transparencies with the ICE set on and not have to do post processing in Photoshop. It selivers very nice, sharp, clear scans.
From the research I did, I think ultimately you need to buy a dedicated film scanner, and one with the ICE function incorporated - it will never be the same if it's an add-on. Of course, that's gonna be more expensive. And if you want to do MF, then dedicated film scanners are horribly expensive.
One option that's come up recently is the Epson ?4870? ?4990? which is a flatbed which supposedly does a good job of scanning film up to 4x5 - not cheap, but nowhere near as expensive as (say) a Coolscan 9000.
Anyway, bottom line I found was that if you wanted good results it was going to cost you some serious money
N
Nikon Bob
Guest
Anders
The "unsharp Mask" is in Photo Shop and may be in some other post scanning corrections software. Scanning can be frustrating but you just have to experiment.
Bob
The "unsharp Mask" is in Photo Shop and may be in some other post scanning corrections software. Scanning can be frustrating but you just have to experiment.
Bob
phototone
Well-known
There is no way to get superior results with any scanner, without tweaking the settings available in the scanning software, and then final tweaking in photoshop. It requires practice, and patience, and in the case of b/w film, the dust spotting will have to be manual, done in Photoshop with the clone stamp, and healing brush. I have spent hours spotting my older negatives to get them flaw-free.
The upside, is once you retouch a digital file, it is done, all prints at any time in the future will be as flaw-free as the first. No tedious spotting on each print.
I always scan and save at the highest possible resolution, retouch and save again, therefore I can print at any size I want in the future. Takes up lost of space, but so what? I only scan the keepers.
The upside, is once you retouch a digital file, it is done, all prints at any time in the future will be as flaw-free as the first. No tedious spotting on each print.
I always scan and save at the highest possible resolution, retouch and save again, therefore I can print at any size I want in the future. Takes up lost of space, but so what? I only scan the keepers.
doubs43
Well-known
It may seem unnecessary to say but keeping the scanner glass and the negatives as clean as possible is a big help in minimizing the touch-up needed after scanning. A camel-hair brush is great for cleaning negatives prior to scanning. I also have a de-ionizing "gun" that I purchased many years ago to eliminate static on vinyl records. It works great on negatives in dry weather when static electricity can attract dust particles.
The software with my Epson 4180 has a grain-reduction AND a dust removal function which increases the scan time by quite a bit. A normal 3 minute scan at 4800 dpi becomes a 5 minute scan when those functions are selected.
I use Corel Photo-Paint 12 to work on my images and I have a function that allows me to "drag" the neighboring pixels across a dust spot and eliminate it. The result is almost always undetectable.
Hopefully this will give you some ideas that will be helpful. Dust and lint can be a real pain in the lower regions of one's anatomy.
Walker
The software with my Epson 4180 has a grain-reduction AND a dust removal function which increases the scan time by quite a bit. A normal 3 minute scan at 4800 dpi becomes a 5 minute scan when those functions are selected.
I use Corel Photo-Paint 12 to work on my images and I have a function that allows me to "drag" the neighboring pixels across a dust spot and eliminate it. The result is almost always undetectable.
Hopefully this will give you some ideas that will be helpful. Dust and lint can be a real pain in the lower regions of one's anatomy.
Walker