j j
Well-known
I live in a country without ID cards. It pleases me that I do not have to prove who I am to walk down a street in my town. Am I paranoid?
certifiable
Established
I'm not sure what's worse...
Not being stopped because you're white or being stopped for taking photographes.
Btw you're required to carry your id here(and be able to show it) BUT, and that's the whole point here, they NEED to have a GOOD reason to even ask you.
Not being stopped because you're white or being stopped for taking photographes.
Btw you're required to carry your id here(and be able to show it) BUT, and that's the whole point here, they NEED to have a GOOD reason to even ask you.
MartinP
Veteran
Strangely I have been past Utrecht station many times and never felt the urge to photograph it. There are some nice canals etc. towards the older part of town though. Another problem for me, living in Holland, is that I don't have a dutch identity card to present when asked - and nor do I carry my UK passport everyday either. Ooops.
certifiable
Established
Hehe not the smartest thing, but the fine is only 35 or 50€ for not being able to id yourself and (unless they've changed it) if you're able to show it within 24 hours it's ok...
MartinP
Veteran
Hmm, interesting to know. I'll go along to the Vreemdelingpolitie on Saturday and check what the law is. Being foreign I am specifically not allowed to have an ID card, but maybe they really do expect everyone to carry a passport when they jog round the park.
certifiable
Established
Well you're not really required to carry it with you all the time, you're just required to show it when they ask... If you get my drift 
But I just always have my id in my wallet, the advantage of an id I guess.
But I just always have my id in my wallet, the advantage of an id I guess.
emraphoto
Veteran
The whole 'if you aren't doing anything wrong...' arguement is of a singular focus. The laws apply to a society, not just you. We, as said society, have an obligation to ensure they (laws) are just and protected as well as the justice system. Regardless if he is a baker, candlestick maker or police officer the law is clear and should be protected as such. I certainly consider it my duty regardless of 'the hassle' it may cause my day.
With that said, I don't quite get the 'turn on your own citizens' approach to security. Why aren't we asking the folks dropping jdams and white phosphorous on civilians, in the name of security, to halt their activities instead? Seems like it would make a bigger dent in our 'terrorist' problem.
chrismoret
RF-addict
The Netherlands always were a fairly liberal place to live. It is sad to experience that since a few years a lot of that famous/notorious liberal climate is changing for the worst.
The incident and reaction of the police are a illustrative example.
The incident and reaction of the police are a illustrative example.
taskoni
Well-known
Well, without seeing an ID it might be hard to tell who is "your own citizen" and who's not... :bang: Or the Dutch people are so unique
emraphoto
Veteran
Well, without seeing an ID it might be hard to tell who is "your own citizen" and who's not... :bang: Or the Dutch people are so unique
i think the laws remain fairly balanced towards citizens AND visitors.
seakayaker1
Well-known
You get on a plane and you show your ID several times to many people who are not police without hesitation. Asked by a uniformed police officer for identification in the street and it upsets people.
Times have certainly changed in the last decade and we are all still learning to adapt. I have only been asked by a police officer to show ID when stopped for a traffic violation. If asked on the street I would probably comply. If I thought it was an abuse of power I would file a grievance. As someone mentioned above a police officer has to give his name and badge number if requested to a citizen. In these crazy times I do believe everyone is doing the best they can, some are overzealous while others may be to lax in enforcing and/or interpretation of the law. Cool heads can prevail and a free society will come into balance.
The bottom line is I have to believe that a trained professional is doing the best they can with the information they have in hand on any given day of the week. . . . . . and we all have bad days.
If I thought otherwise, I would be one paranoid sob . . . . .
Times have certainly changed in the last decade and we are all still learning to adapt. I have only been asked by a police officer to show ID when stopped for a traffic violation. If asked on the street I would probably comply. If I thought it was an abuse of power I would file a grievance. As someone mentioned above a police officer has to give his name and badge number if requested to a citizen. In these crazy times I do believe everyone is doing the best they can, some are overzealous while others may be to lax in enforcing and/or interpretation of the law. Cool heads can prevail and a free society will come into balance.
The bottom line is I have to believe that a trained professional is doing the best they can with the information they have in hand on any given day of the week. . . . . . and we all have bad days.
If I thought otherwise, I would be one paranoid sob . . . . .
emraphoto
Veteran
It isn't about being paranoid. It's about laws, rights and us as a society doing our part in making sure they are adhered to. Regardless if you are a cop, you are expected to follow the letter of the law just as we are. The idea that somehow police officers should be afforded some sort of leeway or be able to ignore an established law is far more frightening to me than any 'terrorist'.
again, if we are so afraid of this idea of global terrorism that we are prepared to surrender our rights with little hesitation then perhaps we should address the whole 'dropping bombs on people thing'. the total percentage of civilians amongst all casualties in the past 10 years of warfare is staggering. perhaps we could ask our representitives to start 'the war on terrorism' there and leave us alone. much like many of our constitutions stipulate.
again, if we are so afraid of this idea of global terrorism that we are prepared to surrender our rights with little hesitation then perhaps we should address the whole 'dropping bombs on people thing'. the total percentage of civilians amongst all casualties in the past 10 years of warfare is staggering. perhaps we could ask our representitives to start 'the war on terrorism' there and leave us alone. much like many of our constitutions stipulate.
ampguy
Veteran
I like the Netherlands, and don't like getting hassled by street photographers. I'm glad they nailed the bastid. Let's keep this country a nice place to visit and relax.
Riverman
Well-known
In the UK (my home country - though I am currently living in the US) there is no compulsory requirement to carry ID at all times and unless a police officer has reasonable cause to arrest you, a citizen (sorry, 'subject' of the crown ;-)) is under no obligation to identify himself or herself to a police officer. There are of course some exceptions to this: for example, noone may lawfully drive without a photo ID driver's license and a traffic cop can require you to present it if pulled over.
Since the introduction of more intrusive anti-terrorism legislation in the UK, police are able to conduct 'stop and search' in certain designated areas (likely terrorist targets, stations etc) entirely at random. Normally, police have to have reasonable grounds to stop and search.
I have been randomly stopped and searched on such basis once at a major London railway station. When the junior police officer conducting the search had finished rifling through my camera bag, he asked for my personal information - name/address etc. to record in his log book. I politely told him to get stuffed unless he had reasonable grounds to suspect that I had committed or was about to commit a criminal offence, in which case he could arrest me. Furthermore, I asked junior plod to identify himself to me by his badge number and station and I diligently recorded the details in my notebook. He was quite ruffled by all this and went to speak to his sergeant. I'm pleased to say that the sergeant confirmed that I did not have to personally identify myself to junior plod, who instead took down a physical description of me in his book.
Cling to your liberties. All this compulsory identification is largely useless as far as I can tell. They're quite obsessed with it in Spain (where I was living and working in 2007) but it didn't seem to thwart to atrocities that took place there in '04.
Since the introduction of more intrusive anti-terrorism legislation in the UK, police are able to conduct 'stop and search' in certain designated areas (likely terrorist targets, stations etc) entirely at random. Normally, police have to have reasonable grounds to stop and search.
I have been randomly stopped and searched on such basis once at a major London railway station. When the junior police officer conducting the search had finished rifling through my camera bag, he asked for my personal information - name/address etc. to record in his log book. I politely told him to get stuffed unless he had reasonable grounds to suspect that I had committed or was about to commit a criminal offence, in which case he could arrest me. Furthermore, I asked junior plod to identify himself to me by his badge number and station and I diligently recorded the details in my notebook. He was quite ruffled by all this and went to speak to his sergeant. I'm pleased to say that the sergeant confirmed that I did not have to personally identify myself to junior plod, who instead took down a physical description of me in his book.
Cling to your liberties. All this compulsory identification is largely useless as far as I can tell. They're quite obsessed with it in Spain (where I was living and working in 2007) but it didn't seem to thwart to atrocities that took place there in '04.
Keith
The best camera is one that still works!
'Cling' being the operative word!
The Queensland police are currently about to be given powers to randomly search minors (under seventeens here) if they are supected of carrying alcohol or anything else elicit.
seakayaker1
Well-known
I don't believe that everyone has or is surrendering rights with little hesitation.
There is a choice to get involved, vote, write letters to elected officials at all levels in government and volunteer time to a charity/social program each month within your community.
If there is any issue that is disturbing is the apathy that people have towards government and social issues.
Change is constant and we all need to be vigilant.
Life is real, but it is not reality TV.
Think Globally, Act Locally!
pvdhaar
Peter
Ah, but it does serve a purpose; it's not for nothing that it's called the boeteverdubbelaar.. (i.e. the fine-doubler)..
Mr_Flibble
In Tabulas Argenteas Refero
Ah, but it does serve a purpose; it's not for nothing that it's called the boeteverdubbelaar.. (i.e. the fine-doubler)..
And here we get to the financial aspect of the Dutch Compulsory Identification Law.
We knew it didn't work 5 years ago, yet it is still in place.
Gabriel M.A.
My Red Dot Glows For You
That is an Absolute statement. No: it's not that "showing your ID" in itself is either "offensive" or "bothersome" or "beneath you". It's that whenever a person of authority uses it as an excuse to bait you into a situation for arresting you, specially when you are within your right not to show one, that's when it becomes "a risk for democracy".
Given that everyone, including the police, is human, and we all make mistakes and judgements (whether right or not), we need laws and rights. When police demand actions from you which you have the right not to obey, and they arrest you for exercising your rights, that is what is wrong. Again, it depends on the situation. Little dumb things like this really water down police's actions (and authority). Little petty alpha male tug-o-wars do nobody good in this sort of cases.
Looking at this as black-or-white is precisely one of the sources of the problem.
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Roger Hicks
Veteran
Which is in itself curious. How is it distinguished from a right? If you pass the necessary driving tests and obey the relevant laws, you are entitled to drive. How is this not a right?
In fact, the word 'privilege' means absolutely nothing in this context. My wife is from upstate New York, and as she said, "I was told this [the 'privilege' quote] too, but it doesn't bear close examination."
This is something of an aside, but it is also an insight into what we allow ourselves to be told by those in 'authority'. She forgets where she first heard it, but believes it may well have been in school. Then, in her 20s, she thought about it for a second or two and realized that it was nonsense.
Cheers,
R.