Earliest (best value) M with decent internal meter?

I have an M5 and an MP. Well, the TTL meter of M5 is perfect also like the TTL meter of my MP. Stop it to speak badly of the M5! This is a very realiable camera, a true Leica M in every respect.
Another solution is buy a good hand held meter.
Ciao.
Vincenzo
 
Vincenzo makes a good point. The OP states that his meter(s) are unreliable. It might be less expensive to ditch the bad meters and get a proper one.
 
I still don't understand people who buy a Leica and then use AE. I mean really, what's the point. Why not get a camera with AF as well, and easier loading? I guess some people just like to spend money on toys....
 
Damaso said:
I still don't understand people who buy a Leica and then use AE. I mean really, what's the point. Why not get a camera with AF as well, and easier loading? I guess some people just like to spend money on toys....
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Maybe some people buy into the Leica system for the durability, compactness, and/or the lenses? Not everyone enjoys or benefits from fully manual exposure and that doesn't make them any worse at their craft than someone who does shoot all manual.
 
Have received some very useful replies. Thanks a lot.

For the purposes of the post, I did exaggerate my problems a bit. Most of my shots from my first "all-M2" trip (to Istanbul) were pretty much spot on. My biggest complaint is the time it takes to set up a shot. Most of the poorly exposed shots were ones where I just "winged" it; didn't bother to take a fresh meter reading and just used my head (silly me). But I think the only way to solve that problem of speed is to go AE. My R-D1's AE setting has served me well for several months now and if you compensate for backlight, etc. (i.e. use your head) it's pretty spot on.

So maybe I have to swallow the several comments that an internal meter won't really solve my problem, unless it has AE. One alternative would be to get a more reliable meter (I have an older Gossen meter, not selenium but not new either) and, given the importance of subject metering in the zone system I've been reading all about (thanks for that!), maybe one with a spot meter attachment. And then just exposing for the subject (maybe correcting for tonality according to the zone system) and letting the b/w film take care of the rest. Judging from the histograms of my self-developed shots which are quite tight, there is a lot more room in most for even more contrast (unless I'm doing something wrong, but that's maybe something for another post).

Thanks again all for bringing me back down to Earth. As an amateur I shouldn't expect that perfect exposure should come automatically in all circumstances. That is, after all, the most essential skill of a trained photographer, no? I need to learn how to use my meter more intelligently. I'm sure it will come with practice.

Cheers,

Jeremy
 
Damaso said:
I still don't understand people who buy a Leica and then use AE. I mean really, what's the point.
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Presumably because they like Leica lenses, or RF focus, or something else about 'em, but would like the option of AE in some circumstances. AFAIK, all AE-capable M-mount cameras allow manual exposure as well as AE. The only AE-capable Leica cameras, the M7 and M8, certainly do.
Why not get a camera with AF as well, and easier loading? I guess some people just like to spend money on toys....
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To a real purist, no doubt, light meters, and rangefinders and other such artificial aids are "toys" as well. Such "real he-men" expose by eye, within 1/2 a stop. Scale-focus their Noctilux by eye, wide open no less, within 1/8th of an inch. They leap into their trousers both legs at a time. They are immune to kryptonite.

Some of the rest of us might use AE from time-to-time and appreciate nice film loading. I own a Hexar RF which does both, and I use it. But then I've been known to eat quiche. Sometimes while using my M3 and living without AE . Note, BTW, its damned hard to eat quiche with the bottom plate between your teeth to change film 😀

...Mike
 
Hi Jeremy

I use a leicameter MR4 on my M2 and it's certainly accurate enough for B&W.

two reasons why you should IMHO try this solution:

1- you already own the camera, so the wallet won't be too mistreated

2 - it allows what even the M6 won't give you: a metering WITHOUT bringing the camera to your eye, thus shouting all around "HEY! I"M TAKING A PICTURE HERE!!!".
I have found it to be an excellent solution for candid, street situation.

Good luck
 
AE is a tool Damaso, that's all. I shoot M7's, MP's & an M5. I prefer the M7's when working in town, for when in AE they can be faster while allowing me better exposures in the changing brightness I find in my shooting. I came to the M's from Contax G2's, which are the cameras you describe above (?), but I found them noisy, and in practice I found them slower working in what I shoot, with the focus, recompose, expose sequence.

I certainly don't use AE all the time, but when a good choice for the situation I find it a great feature. I've gotten a few shots I would have missed, not a bunch, and certainly no real winners, but I sure do like the M7's in town. The setting of exposure compensation and aperture as I approach the subject has become quite second nature- and can be done without needing to bring the camera to the eye- then I position myself while I focus and make the exposure.
 
I'd say try a Leicameter MR4 or a Cosina-Voightlander Meter II before you go and buy and sell camera bodies. The C-V will only set you back $174. This will solve your problem of fumbling with a hand held meter and allow you to concentrate on the camera more.

Forget the ugly duck M5. Those swing-into-and-out-of-position meters do break, and tho they can be replaced, it'll be at high cost.
 
George maybe never don't use a Leica M5. I own a model of 1974. The particular meter of the M5 is robust and reliable, across the time passing. Never was broke and is always reliable and precise.
Dear Damaso, if you want a good hand held meter, to use with Leica M2, M3 or M4, i suggest you the Gossen Profisix, the Sekonic L328F or the Minolta Autometer IV F.
Ciao.
Vincenzo
 
Damaso said:
I still don't understand people who buy a Leica and then use AE. I mean really, what's the point.
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The point is that it can be incredibly useful under certain circumstances, for example the combination of a need for shooting speed and rapid light changes. The AP automatic exposure on the M7 can be a godsend.
 
I support the Leica-Meter MR 'interim solution'. I have one on my M2 since a few weeks, which measures exactly the same values as my trusty Gossen Polysix. It only set me back € 54,-.
Indeed it can be used unobtrusively, without looking through the viewfinder. On the other hand it can give exact readings of previewed (90mm frame) subjects.
It is compact, hardly adds weight and after some exercising it handles without any trouble. Gradually I'm becoming a great fan of it.
 
photorat said:
Thanks again all for bringing me back down to Earth. As an amateur I shouldn't expect that perfect exposure should come automatically in all circumstances. That is, after all, the most essential skill of a trained photographer, no? I need to learn how to use my meter more intelligently. I'm sure it will come with practice.

Cheers,

Jeremy
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I think you got it, and that's the most important. It's so easy for us to give in to the tease that a new camera with a new feature will improve our hits.

One more thing that you might want to investigate is using your eyes and brain as the meter, the guide (often mistaken as a hard and fast rule) is called the Sunny-16. Read on it and if you're still skeptical, sacrifice a roll.

You can ask me about this anytime. I am one of the few people around here who chose the M4-P instead of M6 just because it doesn't have a meter 😀
 
Jeremy,

One thing I learned is that you can meter against the gray color of a sidewalk and use it as reference. You can tinker with this original reading according to the light reflected from your subject. Say, step out of the house and into the great outdoors, take a reading off the sidewalk (for instance, with ISO 400 film it can be 1/250 at f11, pretty luminous day), and then point your camera to the subject you may have in front of you and take another reading (t may be 1/250 at f16 or f22). Now you have a pretty good idea that your light values may go from the first to the second... or, better yet, you will remember that this light variation is one or two full stops different from your first reading.

If you shoot print film, don't worry much about getting perfect exposures. The latitude in print film will allow you to make these mistakes and still get a usable image.

Take care and enjoy shooting meterless for a while. Just to get a good, reliable metered Leica, go for the M6, or the M6TTL, in addition to the M5 and the M7.
 
Sorry, the AE isn't a tool. It doesn't give you suggestions like a meter does, it simply decides the precious moment for you. give me a break.
 
kipkeston said:
Sorry, the AE isn't a tool. It doesn't give you suggestions like a meter does, it simply decides the precious moment for you. give me a break.
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:bang:

I didn't say you had to use it, just saying why I use it, and if you read the post I'd said I dial in some exposure compensation as I approach the subject- thus allowing the AE to simply set the same shutter speed I would after taking a meter reading and doing the compensation adjustment math in my head. Seems like a tool to me, in capable hands anyway.

In nearly 25 years of shooting with AE cameras I've never had the AE fire the shutter for me.

So did I break your precious preconceptions of AE?🙄
 
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M6 is probably the best bet. OR find a top meter- I used to use those old Leica meters that clip right on. CV also makes one, but it's not linked to the shutter speed dial like the Leica ones are.

If you were to move to an M4, it still wouldn't have a meter, but it would have modern loading. You can still put a meter on that. All in all--I'd go with an M6, and remember that even the classics still have TTL metering. It's just the flash that is not TTL.
 
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