BrianT
Member
Hi,
Might a newbie ask for some information?
I have a rather nice collection of Kievs, particularly the early 11s and 111s. I have read that the 111 production started in 1953, however I have some earlier examples.
!948: No 48096 with rigid Z K f1.5 No480006
1949: No49102 with coll ZK f2 No 4902575
1950: No 50089 with rigid Zeiss F1.5 Sonnar. No unrelated to year of camera.
Surprisingly all three are in very good condition , even the meters work. I have a 1951 and1952 as well but examples and details of three are enough to bore many . So what was going on at Arsenal, or could these have been pre production? Yes it would be quite easy for somebody to have replaced the accessory shoes and engraved early numbers but as can be seen the lens numbers on the first two match the years of production,and the third has a genuine Zeiss lens. Funny, any ideas.
Brian
Might a newbie ask for some information?
I have a rather nice collection of Kievs, particularly the early 11s and 111s. I have read that the 111 production started in 1953, however I have some earlier examples.
!948: No 48096 with rigid Z K f1.5 No480006
1949: No49102 with coll ZK f2 No 4902575
1950: No 50089 with rigid Zeiss F1.5 Sonnar. No unrelated to year of camera.
Surprisingly all three are in very good condition , even the meters work. I have a 1951 and1952 as well but examples and details of three are enough to bore many . So what was going on at Arsenal, or could these have been pre production? Yes it would be quite easy for somebody to have replaced the accessory shoes and engraved early numbers but as can be seen the lens numbers on the first two match the years of production,and the third has a genuine Zeiss lens. Funny, any ideas.
Brian
Jean
Member
Hello,
According to Princelle, kiev III production is from 1949 to 1955. 1948 is no surprise, if genuine you've got a very very rare camera.
Can you post pictures ?
All the best,
Jean
According to Princelle, kiev III production is from 1949 to 1955. 1948 is no surprise, if genuine you've got a very very rare camera.
Can you post pictures ?
All the best,
Jean
BrianT
Member
Here you are Jean a picture of the 1948(?) 111. I haven't got a clue what the 'A' prefix denotes. However it's the matching lens number that inclinesme to thinkit might be genuine, that and it wasbought from perhaps the most reliable of our Ukrainian friends.
Re the 1950 model I mentioned previously. There is an English guy who lives in Kiev ( forgotten his name for the moment) well, he has a rather rough example, the serial number is only 10 earlier then mine i.e. under 100. He explains it by saying that only 100 were produced in that year. Don't knowif it's relavent but the 1948 film indicator is inscribed Gostwhereas my 1949,50,51,52, are marked DIN, I have both Gost and DIN for 53 and 54 on all seem to be Gost.
Boring for some, meat and drink for others.
Re the 1950 model I mentioned previously. There is an English guy who lives in Kiev ( forgotten his name for the moment) well, he has a rather rough example, the serial number is only 10 earlier then mine i.e. under 100. He explains it by saying that only 100 were produced in that year. Don't knowif it's relavent but the 1948 film indicator is inscribed Gostwhereas my 1949,50,51,52, are marked DIN, I have both Gost and DIN for 53 and 54 on all seem to be Gost.
Boring for some, meat and drink for others.
BrianT
Member
First picture was n't big enough to show the numbers clearly.
mac_wt
Cameras are like bunnies
Xmas
Veteran
My 53 also has an 'A' on shoe and is DIN in exp calculator
Noel
Noel
BrianT
Member
Yes Mac P.H. is very knowledgeable and seems to have added to his site since I looked. I find it interesting that he is now giving 63 and 64 as production of the " No Name" whereas previously only the former year has been quoted. My " No Name" is a 64, but funnily enough I have never doubted it's authenticity......the E.R.C. doesn't have the Kiev logo on the nose piece and that would be quite difficult to bodge.
Xmas ,yes gost and DIN seem to be very mixed up. Re the "A" I haven't a clue but what is more annoying I also have cameras with serial numbers in upper and lower case "B"s and even with one early 11 a "C". I have asked numerous Russian? Ukrainian friends and none seem to know.
Brian
Xmas ,yes gost and DIN seem to be very mixed up. Re the "A" I haven't a clue but what is more annoying I also have cameras with serial numbers in upper and lower case "B"s and even with one early 11 a "C". I have asked numerous Russian? Ukrainian friends and none seem to know.
Brian
Jean
Member
Hello,
Nice camera
As 'DIN' in exposure calculator means german parts inside the camera, a printed serial number inside ZK f1,5 lens is also a proof that your lens is genuine. My only gem is a ZK f1,5 from 1950. There's a printed number inside.
Have a look at the two pictures - first one is the ZK ; the other is a Jupiter 3 from 1956 serial number is written by hand and it's 100% Soviet)
Nice camera
As 'DIN' in exposure calculator means german parts inside the camera, a printed serial number inside ZK f1,5 lens is also a proof that your lens is genuine. My only gem is a ZK f1,5 from 1950. There's a printed number inside.
Have a look at the two pictures - first one is the ZK ; the other is a Jupiter 3 from 1956 serial number is written by hand and it's 100% Soviet)
Attachments
outfitter
Well-known
Most experts would shy away from such categorical statements. DIN also appears on relatively late Kiev 3 cameras at a time that most agree original German parts had been used up - the DIN knob itself might be original German or made for export - who knows. Ditto the serial number on the ZK lens is deemed an indicator that the lens barrel is Zeiss but no one knows about the glass. As to the issue of "genuine" everything that can be is faked in the FSU and printed serial numbers are the easiest thing to fake.Jean said:Hello,
Nice camera
As 'DIN' in exposure calculator means german parts inside the camera, a printed serial number inside ZK f1,5 lens is also a proof that your lens is genuine. My only gem is a ZK f1,5 from 1950. There's a printed number inside.
Have a look at the two pictures - first one is the ZK ; the other is a Jupiter 3 from 1956 serial number is written by hand and it's 100% Soviet)
Michael
BrianT
Member
Thanks for the input guy's.
Yes Michael I quite agree re the DIN film indicator. However I'm mostly convinced by the gost type that the camera is genuine.
In the first instance the guy I bought this from has proven 100% reliable over the past seven years. Then the ZK 1948 lens in a collapsable mount is quite a rare beast. The camera just feels right if you know what I mean...it's also one of the smoothest in my possession. But the cruncher which persuades me to think the camera is real is the gost indicator. I would have bet my last dollar that a 1948 Kiev 111 would have had the DIN type. So, is the camera right and in the course of time has had a later type fitted, or was it originally fitted with the gost part or and after all the trouble to forge the camera did the forger make a slip up anf fit the wrong one? Or was it fitted as a double bluff I don't know and as it will be up to my heirs to sort out I don't at the end of the day care very much.
Now, should I be a naughty boy? I've got a spare DIN knob in the drawer.
Brian.
Yes Michael I quite agree re the DIN film indicator. However I'm mostly convinced by the gost type that the camera is genuine.
In the first instance the guy I bought this from has proven 100% reliable over the past seven years. Then the ZK 1948 lens in a collapsable mount is quite a rare beast. The camera just feels right if you know what I mean...it's also one of the smoothest in my possession. But the cruncher which persuades me to think the camera is real is the gost indicator. I would have bet my last dollar that a 1948 Kiev 111 would have had the DIN type. So, is the camera right and in the course of time has had a later type fitted, or was it originally fitted with the gost part or and after all the trouble to forge the camera did the forger make a slip up anf fit the wrong one? Or was it fitted as a double bluff I don't know and as it will be up to my heirs to sort out I don't at the end of the day care very much.
Now, should I be a naughty boy? I've got a spare DIN knob in the drawer.
Brian.
outfitter
Well-known
Well we both know there is the real world of camera manufacture, repair and use and the collector's world of attempting to create rules where none may exist - well at least there is a parts bin and prototype workshop to confound all rules. The only observations I have to add are:
1) DVD Tech at one time showed a photo of Kiev-3 Camera 1948 #481319, Lens Sonnar2/5cm #2687481 (T coated collapsible). It appears to have the DIN scale (i.e. the f-stop ring has F: before f22 like original German cameras but unlike Gost cameras).
2) Same source shows a 1949 Kiev-3 with Gost indicator
3) Same source shows 1950 and 1951 (and others) with both types of indicators.
I defy anyone without specific proof to conclude anything about originality based on the use of a Gost indicator on a 1948 Kiev-3.
Michael
1) DVD Tech at one time showed a photo of Kiev-3 Camera 1948 #481319, Lens Sonnar2/5cm #2687481 (T coated collapsible). It appears to have the DIN scale (i.e. the f-stop ring has F: before f22 like original German cameras but unlike Gost cameras).
2) Same source shows a 1949 Kiev-3 with Gost indicator
3) Same source shows 1950 and 1951 (and others) with both types of indicators.
I defy anyone without specific proof to conclude anything about originality based on the use of a Gost indicator on a 1948 Kiev-3.
Michael
BrianT
Member
Yep and I reckon I know where they ended up
outfitter
Well-known
WOWBrianT said:Yep and I reckon I know where they ended up
Michael
contax3d
Newbie
Early Kiev IIIs
Early Kiev IIIs
Having just found this forum I thought I would add my own information regarding these early Kievs.
My own example is No.480076 and has the A in the shoe, a DIN scale on the meter scale, a focussing wheel without the groove around the edge as found on some early Kiev and Jena Contax models also the front plate has three notches in the cicular lens mount hole circumference all directly behind the three bayonet lugs this may seem unimportant but all of my 1950 and earlier Kiev IIs have only the lower two notches as in Dresden and Jena Contaxes. I wonder if this points to a replaced front plate or is the camera a later model with a spurious number or replaced shoe? Otherwise all I can say is it is remarkably similar to the 48 pictured on this forum and the 3K lens (serial No. 490222) is nearly identical. I hope this may help those as fascinated by thse cameras as me.
Mike.
Early Kiev IIIs
Having just found this forum I thought I would add my own information regarding these early Kievs.
My own example is No.480076 and has the A in the shoe, a DIN scale on the meter scale, a focussing wheel without the groove around the edge as found on some early Kiev and Jena Contax models also the front plate has three notches in the cicular lens mount hole circumference all directly behind the three bayonet lugs this may seem unimportant but all of my 1950 and earlier Kiev IIs have only the lower two notches as in Dresden and Jena Contaxes. I wonder if this points to a replaced front plate or is the camera a later model with a spurious number or replaced shoe? Otherwise all I can say is it is remarkably similar to the 48 pictured on this forum and the 3K lens (serial No. 490222) is nearly identical. I hope this may help those as fascinated by thse cameras as me.
Mike.
Spyderman
Well-known
Brian - you're sick! And it makes ME sick! I'm just soooo jealous :angel: I only have 2 Kiev 4a...
And it makes ME sick! I'm just soooo jealous :angel: I only have 2 Kiev 4a...
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radiocemetery
Well-known
So, Brian, what's the load limit on that shelving? Better be careful, and don't let the cat up there.
Steve
Steve
Xmas
Veteran
Steve
All Brian needs ia a hungry wood worm.
Both the ZK collapsibles I have seen have had the full year '1948' the other side of a 'toombstone symbol' and then serials 0007xx and 0004xx, they had a grey more matt chrome finish then WWII collapsible sonnars and one less grub screw in their collapsible locks so they needed more angular turn to lock. They looked other wise identical.
The Su tended to mark prototypes with leading zeros.
Noel
All Brian needs ia a hungry wood worm.
Both the ZK collapsibles I have seen have had the full year '1948' the other side of a 'toombstone symbol' and then serials 0007xx and 0004xx, they had a grey more matt chrome finish then WWII collapsible sonnars and one less grub screw in their collapsible locks so they needed more angular turn to lock. They looked other wise identical.
The Su tended to mark prototypes with leading zeros.
Noel
radiocemetery
Well-known
Noel,
I remember hearing about woodworms when we visited England. Is that a beetle larvae of some sort? Here we have termites to destroy wooden structures. You may not even know they are there until your foot goes thru the floor. ( a slight exageration) Anyway what a nice squadron or gaggle of KNEB Brian has there.
Steve
I remember hearing about woodworms when we visited England. Is that a beetle larvae of some sort? Here we have termites to destroy wooden structures. You may not even know they are there until your foot goes thru the floor. ( a slight exageration) Anyway what a nice squadron or gaggle of KNEB Brian has there.
Steve